Brewing Solution/idea

[lordy]

Hey guys,

A friend and I have set ourselves on the course of creating a fermenter with some 'premium' features.

Our solution would communicate with a computer, reporting various facts and figures and giving us the ability to monitor a brew and have it communicated in nice graphs etc. (Because we like graphs)

Essentially we want to create a fermenter that has the following features 'built in':
+ Monitor and control the temperature of a brew
+ Monitor current alcohol content
+ Setup brewing 'profiles' for a brew. This allows you to track what steps you went through, down to the temperature at all times and ensure that this process is carried out later once you hit on that 'perfect' recipe.
+ Give you the ability to CC straight away
+ Alert you via email/sms that a brew is finished a certain stage (and ask for permission (or notify) to go to a new stage, such as CC, bottling etc)

Display all information and history for brews such as temperatures, time taken for each stage, show you graphs. Email it to you, put it on a webpage. Let you send it to others (step by step recipes!)

A couple of questions about this though:
Is this idea silly? Has it been done already?
Are there any other features we should try to add to it? We're after making this the be all end all, so nothing is too big or too small.

I'll be asking more questions about this in the future and post some photos etc if anyone is interested.

Thanks,
Danni

 

[citizensnips]

all I can say is...no that idea is not silly at all!
that is one of the most beautiful things i've ever heard............if what you said actually did become a reality...........lord have mercey

 

[raven19]

Are we essentially talking about a supercharged fridgemate with temperature sensor probe?

Some similar setups have been done previously for sure, but graphs are good indeed!

I would say, however, that it is more important to get your system working well and understand all the processes, etc before overcomplicating it.

Just my 2c.

Edit: Links of some use - I know there is another golden one out there cant fint it though!

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...16391&st=20

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...sensor&st=0

Great piccies here...
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...15376&st=15

 

[adraine]

sound like a very big ask...but if you can pull it off then the brewing world will be eternally grateful.
Good luck and keep us posted.

Adam

 

[Jakechan]

We were having a joke about this sort of thing on here a few weeks back, I was wishing for all of the above in my post!

Alcohol content, I presume you are going to be measuring SG automatically? I was told in that other thread that yes it can be done, but costs a fortune.
Will be really keen to see what you come up with. You MUST post pics.

Cheers,
Jake

 

[chappo1970]

We were having a joke about this sort of thing on here a few weeks back, I was wishing for all of the above in my post! Alcohol content, I presume you are going to be measuring SG automatically? I was told in that other thread that yes it can be done, but costs a fortune.
Will be really keen to see what you come up with. You MUST post pics.
Cheers,
Jake

Errr... Jake (In a whisper) your showing your inner beer geek again Mate! :lol:

Yep do it, do it, do it! Sounds very, very cool. In fact if you could have it racking to secondary and crash chill automatically, now we are talking! Waaaaiiit.... hold on! no hydro testing means no taste testing... bad bad bad idea!

 

[dj1984]

How about a conical version??

 

[Adamt]

This sort of thing has been done by quite a few brewers at home, to certain lengths. I know most of Zwickel's brewery is automated or controlled by PC, and others log temperature, etc.

As far as measuring the alcohol content goes, that would be most difficult as you would need to gather the SG (density) of the brew. This could be done by having the fermenter on electronic scales, subtracting the empty fermenter weight and dividing by the current volume (maybe as reported by a level sensor).

You must also keep in mind that everything you measure will not be accurate, especially when considering temperature (temperature around the thermocouple may not be a good representation of the temperature near the active yeast) and SG (scales are notoriously dodgy).

Are you kit or mash brewing? If you're just kit brewing at the moment.. I would strongly suggest investing your time, effort and money into moving up to mashing. It will increase your consistency (and quality) far higher than you would achieve from this project, assuming they are your main aims.

Cheers
Adam

 

[Jakechan]

Errr... Jake (In a whisper) your showing your inner beer geek again Mate! :lol:

Damn! Caught out again!

 

[alowen474]

We were having a joke about this sort of thing on here a few weeks back, I was wishing for all of the above in my post!

Alcohol content, I presume you are going to be measuring SG automatically? I was told in that other thread that yes it can be done, but costs a fortune.
Will be really keen to see what you come up with. You MUST post pics.

Cheers,
Jake

Someone posted a computer reading refractometer not so long ago.
You could float an hydrometer in the fermenter and have it read by a camera and sorted by the computer to a reading for your alcohol and your fermentation stages.
Graphs would be a piece of cake from this. You could also know when to bottle so there is enough fermentables to finish conditioning itself.

 

[Adamt]

Neither I, nor a computer, would be able to read a hydrometer that's either resting up against the side of the fermenter, surrounded by krausen, or that has dried krausen/crud all over it.

 

[RdeVjun]

Hmm, fermentation process measurement and control. Some great ideas- some easy, but others really hard to implement. Unless you have very, very deep pockets that is. Even then there's a helluva lot of primo ingredients and bog- standard breware (brewing hard ware!) that can be bought with all that dough, so I'd be balancing all that up. I know I have, and I've not embarked on quite such an ambitious project to automate the brewing process... yet...
Temperature sensors and actual control is pretty simple, we've seen how it can be taken care of easily. Remember though, when it comes to the control part, that this is not the sort of thing for a PID- as per newguy's informative post over in AHB retail shop forum, fridges/freezer compressors are either on or off and don't short cycle particularly well.
Now, one of these gadgets might help keep an eye on things: Previously, in this post we toyed with these bubble counters but none of us have actually got one yet, at least that I'm aware of (or admit!). Counting (i.e. logging) bubbler throughput would satisfy your controller app that i) things are getting underway after pitching, ii) progressing at a satisfactory rate during fermentation and then iii) have finished. Or, you could just get off your butt and go take a peek at the airlock!
Then I guess its up to that fancy- arsed specific gravity detector you've got (!) to tell you when its ready to CC, just move into secondary or whatever you might want to do. That's where it will fall on its butt though, there's no possible way I can see to measure specific gravity for say, less than $5K, even then that'd be by densimetry with pressure transducers and would need a lot of testing and calibrating to be reliable. I actually think the camera idea for a hydrometer would be worth checking out, but again, heaps of work.
Also, if you find that interfacing what would likely be all these different types of sensors and inputs plus control interfaces is a PITA (or gets too costly), just use an off the shelf datalogger to do that for you and get your app to poll it regularly, and if need be, issue control instructions. Depending on the type of logger, you usually have a wide variety of different input/sensor types and then the flexibility of programming it to do the control. Doing this it may make sense to have the bulk of your measurement and control happening, not by the app at your PC, but actually by the logger itself. Campbell Scientific (no, I'm not affiliated, although I have to admit, they did give me a crap coffee mug and a naff cap!) RTMC software and CR1000 hardware are examples that I've used personally, I'd be rather surprised if there weren't others out there to do the same. Oh, sorry, I've ranted off- topic a bit. A thousand pardons.
And finally, as other members will attest- there's nothing like taking that hydrometer sample. For a variety of reasons!
Good luck though, we'll be keen to hear how it goes, and if you have any questions- fire away!

 

[lordy]

Thanks for your feedback and comments everyone, we definitely are going to go ahead with this project. Please keep in mind that this project will take a few months to finish as we both have many other commitments but I will keep you all updated. I'll just give you a little more info for now...

Yep, dataloggers and PLCs are too expensive for the typical homebrew setup, so we've decided to use microcontrollers to do most of the hard work for us (although saying that, we will be using a PLC during some trials/development as it's quick to setup).

For brew temperature control we will have S/S pipes coiled in our fermenter, with temperature controlled water continually running through. There will be no compressors so PID/Fuzzy control won't be an issue, it will be able to fully heat/cool electronically so your brew stays at the right temperature on 40deg days and 5deg nights.

As far as I can tell our method for measuring specific gravity has not been used in a homebrew setup yet. It does not involve expensive devices, load cells etc but relies on the basic principles of liquid measurement. This method is in usage for the measuring of density of liquids in production environments, with relatively good accuracy and far cheaper than digital hydrometers. Hopefully we can achieve the same results on a much smaller scale.

In the next couple of weeks we will be running a few trials to check the accuracy of our parts (which are currently on order), hope you're all excited as we are! Hopefully it's not a failure

Also mentioned earlier, we would like as much feedback or any wishlists for any sort of features... if they don't make it into this version hopefully they will make it into the next! We're keen to make this very, very, very good.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Thanks for your feedback and comments everyone, we definitely are going to go ahead with this project. Please keep in mind that this project will take a few months to finish as we both have many other commitments but I will keep you all updated. I'll just give you a little more info for now...

Yep, dataloggers and PLCs are too expensive for the typical homebrew setup, so we've decided to use microcontrollers to do most of the hard work for us (although saying that, we will be using a PLC during some trials/development as it's quick to setup).

For brew temperature control we will have S/S pipes coiled in our fermenter, with temperature controlled water continually running through. There will be no compressors so PID/Fuzzy control won't be an issue, it will be able to fully heat/cool electronically so your brew stays at the right temperature on 40deg days and 5deg nights.

As far as I can tell our method for measuring specific gravity has not been used in a homebrew setup yet. It does not involve expensive devices, load cells etc but relies on the basic principles of liquid measurement. This method is in usage for the measuring of density of liquids in production environments, with relatively good accuracy and far cheaper than digital hydrometers. Hopefully we can achieve the same results on a much smaller scale.

In the next couple of weeks we will be running a few trials to check the accuracy of our parts (which are currently on order), hope you're all excited as we are! Hopefully it's not a failure

Also mentioned earlier, we would like as much feedback or any wishlists for any sort of features... if they don't make it into this version hopefully they will make it into the next! We're keen to make this very, very, very good.

So far I have a automated brewery system via dallas sensors and software which switches relays :gas, mash paddle, alarms, pumps etc, this is all easy and readably available,AKA Zywickle setup.My fermentation is controlled by dallas/type sensors in the fermenter via digital controller so thats easy.Temp in the fermenter is logged via dallas sensors with easy to obtain software.BUT I find the Specific gravity reading side of your idea fantastic, let me know more. Happy to supply and ideas if you nee them.
GB

 

[Jazzafish]

Like a few anton par measurements in line with a fermenter?

Well, the things brewers need to know are as follows:
*Gravity (mainly starting, current and target final gravity)
*Ph
*colour in ebc/srm
*alcohol in abv and abw

Other things like this would also be helpful but probably not worth the effort:
*dissolved oxygen in solution
*dissolved co2

The fermenter should have the following too:
*Heating and cooling to the 0.5*C
*Be conical in shape
*Have a display to indicate total volume
*Have a valve at bottom for drawing off yeast
*Have a Valve half way up conical for samples/filling.
*If over a couple of hecs in volume, a smaller sample port
*Have pressure relief valve
*Have easy cleaning access

That is all I can think of for now, hope it helps you in design

 

[RdeVjun]

Thanks for your feedback and comments everyone, we definitely are going to go ahead with this project. Please keep in mind that this project will take a few months to finish as we both have many other commitments but I will keep you all updated. I'll just give you a little more info for now...
Yep, dataloggers and PLCs are too expensive for the typical homebrew setup, so we've decided to use microcontrollers to do most of the hard work for us (although saying that, we will be using a PLC during some trials/development as it's quick to setup).

Yes, fair enough. I use dataloggers and hydrology sensors just about every day at work and have access to a few retirees and spares. Unless you are exceedingly wealthy, these are probably out of your equation.

For brew temperature control we will have S/S pipes coiled in our fermenter, with temperature controlled water continually running through. There will be no compressors so PID/Fuzzy control won't be an issue, it will be able to fully heat/cool electronically so your brew stays at the right temperature on 40deg days and 5deg nights.

Excellent. Even better if you are able to incorporate the natural heat fluxes that our domestic environment and climate provide for us. Rainwater tanks make an excellent cooling water store, I have a few simple pumps (12V, logger- controlled, some diaphragm, some peristalsic) to route it about the place but have yet to actually hook it all up to do something constructive. I suspect come long service leave in a few months, it will be cool enough that it'll actually be solar heated, not cool-store water that I'll be mostly moving, but we'll see...

As far as I can tell our method for measuring specific gravity has not been used in a homebrew setup yet. It does not involve expensive devices, load cells etc but relies on the basic principles of liquid measurement. This method is in usage for the measuring of density of liquids in production environments, with relatively good accuracy and far cheaper than digital hydrometers. Hopefully we can achieve the same results on a much smaller scale.

Please, tell us some more! We're enthralledl!

In the next couple of weeks we will be running a few trials to check the accuracy of our parts (which are currently on order), hope you're all excited as we are! Hopefully it's not a failure
Also mentioned earlier, we would like as much feedback or any wishlists for any sort of features... if they don't make it into this version hopefully they will make it into the next! We're keen to make this very, very, very good.

WRT accuracy of components, please, don't believe manufacturers, in my experience they're mostly a pack of thieving liars.
For sure, hoping it works like a dream, this is really good. For all of us. Queries? Please, fire at will!
The actual mechanics of larger scale brewing I've not really seen before, but as far as measurement and control go this is not overly complex. Its the specific gravity expense that would be concerning me, but if you can crack that one you're way ahead. The rest, while challenging, should be a doddle.
And remember, its probably not a scientific experiment you'd be aiming for here, the measure of success is a damn good brew from, presumably, all monitored and controlled from the comfort of your lounge room/office/wherever!

 

[bradsbrew]

Holy Crap what an awesome concept. And here I was thinking that setting up some sort of webcam so I could check on my fermenter while I'm away for work was a bit over the top so I didn't do it but I think I may now.

Cheers Brad

 

[MarkBastard]

I made a thread a while ago similar to this (though not as in depth).

I think a fridgemate style controller that could measure SG and be configurable would be awesome. For example doing automated scheduled temperature changes. Maybe starting off at 20 for pitching, then down to 18 for most of the brew, maybe a bit higher for a few days once fully fermented, then crash chilled. All pre programmed and based on rules. For example if SG has been under 1.010 and remained constant for 3 days straight, crash chill. If SG hasn't changed for a couple of days and is over 1.020, send an SMS alert.