Brewing "incident" With Rims

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fraser_john

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First up, apologies, no pretty pictures or exciting links in this post!

Want to relate a little story of my RIMS, though this incident is something that has not happened in the 8 years I have been using my RIMS, it reinforced my move to HERMS per my HERMS Design thread.

This is not a HERMS vs. RIMS bash, nor is it intended that the thread degenerate into one, just my particular story. I cannot bash RIMS as it has been faithful to me for 8 years. I cannot promote HERMS as I have not yet used it. That said, now I have a better reason to promote it once I have used it.

With Kirem coming down to stay at my place, I had planned a great w/e. Go to the Food & Beer dinner Friday night in Melbourne. Brew on Saturday arvo and have good wine, beer & cigars Saturday night.

Had the recipe all prepared, a Kentucky Bourbon Ale! With American oak chips, Jim Beam Bourbon, Amarillo late hopping and a malty profile. It is going to be a great beer.

Got it all set up and doughed in. About 30 minutes into the mash, I noticed a stream of air bubbles in the wort flow. This usually indicates a very compacted grain bed in my system, so I decided to give it a stir and mix in some rice hulls.
As soon as I started stirring we noticed the wort flow contained a large amount of flour, far more than normal. After a few minutes Kirem said some thing is burning. Within ten seconds of that, there was a small pop and all electric went out in the brewery and house. This was followed closely by an awful smell of scorched malt.

Of course, my wife comes out expecting to find a couple of bodies lying on the floor, but we are all fine. My only thought is for the poor mash. When I stirred it up the smell was awful.

We decide that something had gone wrong with the element. We pulled the mash tun outside and dumped the grains. The bottom of the tun was covered by flour slurry. How could this be? After thinking about it, my last three brews were all Wyermann Pils and Wyermann Wheat based. I had not checked the crush and was using all JWM Ale with some crystal. The guess is that the JWM was a lot more brittle than the Wyermann and had generated a large amount of flour. This had settled on the bottom of the tun and blocked the outlet, what flour did get through, may have been getting caramelised onto the heater element. Time to pull the RIMS tube apart.

Got the big wrench from the garage and unscrewed the heater element. As we had guessed, the flour and some husks had stuck to the element. This created a crust around it that eventually burnt. After cleaning the element had no visible damage. There must have been enough electrical leakage whilst it was hot to trigger the GFI.

Since building my RIMS, I was suspicious that this event could occur, or, that the pump would cease and the wort boil in the tube. Based on my suspicions and a desire for automating the mash process, I was moving towards HERMS. This was going to be my last brew before the heat exchanger was delivered from stainlessstuff.net, but alas, my suspicions proved founded.

I now have a dead brewery until my heat exchanger arrives.
 
Interesting - can I ask some questions to help avoid this in my RIMS brewery please?

Do you normally disassemble the RIMS tube after every brew to clean the element? If not - do you think it could have been a build up over a period of time... and the floury brew was just the straw that broke the camels back?

Or perhaps - could it have been the blocked inlet causing a low flow rate.. which made things a lot hotter than they would normally get, which in turn caused the burn on? And the flour/husks etc in the actual RIMS itself were incidental to the issue. Effect rather than cause?

The one time I found that I had significant "crusting" on my element after a brew, it was similar situation to yours... I think it was because I had a compacted grain bed and consequently the flow rate was so low.. that the temperature change took so long to reach my thermocouple probe (mounted at the mash tun inlet), that in the meantime the wort in the RIMS casing was boiling. I too noticed the stream of bubbles. I am pretty sure the scum on the element was actually hot break material building up in layers! Fortunately for me things had only just started to go a little brown when I noticed. I was watching and the temperatures went really wild - low then really high

Do you think that might be what happened to you too?

I know you are changing to HERMS regardless, but your experience in this would help me - what do you think of these as possible "solutions" or at least measures to help.

* RIMS tube at the "lowest" point in the brewery so liquid always flows down to it. It might boil.. but it can never boil dry
* Monitor temp at the exit of the RIMS unit - so if things get hot enough for this to happen due to blockages or pump failure.. as soon as the temp heads up the element cuts out
* A flow switch... low flow cuts the element
* Separate temp probe for the actual RIMS unit - over riding and cutting power if things get hotter than say 90C

I have a thermowell in my actual RIMS unit that I had included for this very reason... I might try running a few batches with the temp probe actually inserted in the RIMS tube itself. See what that does to my control - if I can still get the accuracy and response.... it might make sure that I don't get to share your experience, but not cost me for a totally independent thermoswitch.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts

Thirsty
 
TB.....responses for you....

Do you normally disassemble the RIMS tube after every brew to clean the element?

No, but I always caustic clean, alternating with sodium percarbonate clean. When I have torn down the RIMS tub, everything has always been spotless, so I do not think it was an over time build up​

Or perhaps - could it have been the blocked inlet causing a low flow rate.. which made things a lot hotter than they would normally get, which in turn caused the burn on? And the flour/husks etc in the actual RIMS itself were incidental to the issue. Effect rather than cause?

The outlet to the mash tun was blocked by flour sludge, essentially blocking the pump inlet, so yes it may have been the cause, but the fact that so much flour was circulating in the system also would have eventually caused an issue if the grain bed did not filter it out fast enough​

The one time I found that I had significant "crusting" on my element after a brew, it was similar situation to yours... I think it was because I had a compacted grain bed and consequently the flow rate was so low.. that the temperature change took so long to reach my thermocouple probe (mounted at the mash tun inlet), that in the meantime the wort in the RIMS casing was boiling. I too noticed the stream of bubbles. I am pretty sure the scum on the element was actually hot break material building up in layers! Fortunately for me things had only just started to go a little brown when I noticed. I was watching and the temperatures went really wild - low then really high

Do you think that might be what happened to you too?

My termocouple is about 4" from my RIMS tube outlet, so it was getting the temp pretty quickly, but with the reduction in flow, there was no way the system could prevent it​

I know you are changing to HERMS regardless, but your experience in this would help me - what do you think of these as possible "solutions" or at least measures to help.

* RIMS tube at the "lowest" point in the brewery so liquid always flows down to it. It might boil.. but it can never boil dry
My pump is at the lowest point, the RIMS tube is between the bottom of the mash tun and the pump, so don't think that helps​

* Monitor temp at the exit of the RIMS unit - so if things get hot enough for this to happen due to blockages or pump failure.. as soon as the temp heads up the element cuts out
As mentioned, mine is 4" from outlet, so pretty close, not sure how to prevent it​
* A flow switch... low flow cuts the element
Definitely a possibility, but try find one that is cheap enough and easy enough to integrate into a home system :(
* Separate temp probe for the actual RIMS unit - over riding and cutting power if things get hotter than say 90C
Possibly as well, maybe a second basic PID that monitored the RIMS tube and only allowed a maximum of 80c, which would be plenty warm enough to mash out, but....will it catch a runaway element fast enough or permanently cut the power???​

Hope this helps!
 
Thanks John.

Maybe a standard "button" type thermostat switch on the outside of the tube.... temp above 85C and the button flicks the power off and trips an alarm so you come look at it.

I might also look at putting in something to measure the differential pressure across the false bottom. That would change faster and perhaps be easier to measure and convert to a control input than flow rate.

I also might look at oneday converting back to HERMS, probably with a very small heat-ex vessel.. I'm looking forward to hearing how your design works out.

Cheers

Dan
 
Would an observable behaviour of the pump be an indicator of a reduced flow?

Seems to me that measuring the temperature of the RIMS tube would be easiest - perhaps at its inlet?
 
Would an observable behaviour of the pump be an indicator of a reduced flow?

Seems to me that measuring the temperature of the RIMS tube would be easiest - perhaps at its inlet?

The trouble is - mostly you are talking about having all your flows with return points below the surface to keep splashing down.. you have to interfere to "see" how the flow rate is going. Perhaps a little ball in a tube flow indicator... but its just another fiddly thing you have to keep clean.
 
The trouble is - mostly you are talking about having all your flows with return points below the surface to keep splashing down.. you have to interfere to "see" how the flow rate is going. Perhaps a little ball in a tube flow indicator... but its just another fiddly thing you have to keep clean.

My thinking in the first instance was that if the pump is working harder - signaling more head/resistance , it will draw more current. If you can sense that, you're in business.

The more I think about temperature around the immediate input to the RIMS chamber, the more I like it because if there is no flow, it will heat up more than when there is coolant flowing...
 

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