Brewhouse Infection - Can The Pool Help?

[jgriffin]

seems like all the over guys are grabbing at straws to try and help so heres mine,is the sanitiser you are using still effective,out of date,mixing up right strengh,mixing up too big a batch and leave sitting for weeks,the container you mix steriliser in is it contaminated,only a thought or 2
cheers
fergi

[post="51267"][/post]​

ACtually i had the sam thought today Fergi when i discovered that my yeast starter was infected.

Anyone know how long ortho-phos is stable for?

 

[Kai]

Almost indefinitely, theoretically, I think.

Although, if your culture is infected with a wild yeast one-shot might not be able to handle that.

 

[dicko]

JG,
It may be in the yeast or the malt you are using for your starters.
Do you boil and cool the malt wort for the yeast starter?
Cheers

 

[dicko]

If your ortho phosphoric is doubtful then just switch to non cented bleach and rinse well before using.
Cheers

 

[pint of lager]

All good suggestions so far.

From my reading, commercial breweries have schedules of cleaning. They change types of cleaner and sanitiser on a regular basis to stop any bug that may sneak in and be resistant to one style of sanitation.

Another spot that can cause problems is the tap on the boiler. I read about a brewer who pulled his apart and was disgusted at the green grunge in there.

Another brewer found that his regulator on his CO2 cylinder was the source of his infections.

 

[Kai]

Yes, your sanitation regime may be allowing a gradual buildup of a particular strain or strains of bugs. That you've had three bad ones in a row suggests that this might be the issue, as even if you're diligently following your routine something's resisting it. Mix and matching is a good idea, I use one-shot, boiling water and sometimes that pink powder stuff. The little bits like taps, grommets, etc get a bit of alcohol too.

 

[Trough Lolly]

I actually left one batch of infected beer to try to identify what the problem was, i just opened it, and it smelt oh so sour, and there was this white growth on top - lots of little pin head sized white floaties. Anyone got any ideas?

[post="51079"][/post]​

Ok, I've got my brew detective hat on!

Do you aerate your worts at the start of primary? Do you ferment with a lid on or do you practice open fermenting with a bit of glad wrap, pricked, covering the fermenter? Do you use an aquarium pump to push O2 through the brew to encourage yeast growth? Do you pump the air from the same area that you crushed the grains in?

Your description sounds like an acetobacter infection. I did a bit of searching and stumbled across others who had brews turn to vinegar with white pellicles - it was caused by excessive oxygen uptake. I never crush grain in the same place that I ferment my worts - the airborne grain particles and dust are prime candidates for spoiled beer and other infections. You might want to have a sour lactic infection happen if you want to brew Guinness, but generally you don't want that sort of thing going on. If this is something that has repeatedly happened, it's either a dirty piece of equipment that is coming into contact with every brew, or a procedure (new or old) that is causing a change in the results of your brewing - sorry to state the obvious, but in addition to cleaning like a demon, try to isolate out the things that you used or applied to each brew and your starter - the infection source is somewhere in there...

Cheers,
TL

 

[Hoops]

John

I am still using the Phos acid from the bulk buy and haven't had any problems at all.
As the other guys have said with your sanitising regime, some bugs can build up immunity to certain sanitisers. I would try to clean and sanitise everything with things on different ends of the scale ie acid then caustic. I would use:
bleach, then
napisan, then
caustic (beerline cleaner/dishwasher powder/caustic soda etc), then
acid (phos acid)
and if you have any, finally iodine
If the bugs survived that I would get a new fermenter and see what happens.

In fact I would buy a cheap new fermenter (hardware store type) do a brew and taste it the whole way through the brewing process. Might provide some clues.

Hoops

 

[Hoops]

seems like all the over guys are grabbing at straws to try and help so heres mine,is the sanitiser you are using still effective,out of date,mixing up right strengh,mixing up too big a batch and leave sitting for weeks,the container you mix steriliser in is it contaminated,only a thought or 2
cheers
fergi

[post="51267"][/post]​

ACtually i had the sam thought today Fergi when i discovered that my yeast starter was infected.

Anyone know how long ortho-phos is stable for?

[post="51268"][/post]​

Are you diluting the phos acid then storing it???
I have left mine at full strength and don't dilute it. Just pour a small amout neat into whatever I'm sanitising then add water.
I would be worried with an infected starter. Definitely sounds like the phos isn't doing its job as you've virtually removed the rest of your brew gear from the infection equation.
Is the phos acid all you use to sanitize with for your starters?

 

[Darren]

Jg,
If your starter is infected it is obviously occuring early in your process.
I would soak everything you use for your starters in a bleach solution. (grommets, airlocks, bungs, hoses).Bleach is a fantastic sanitiser. It is safe to use on anything plastic in your brewery. It kills everything (such as wild yeast). Wild yeast will be semi-resistant to phosphoric acid sanitation. I also clean and sanitise the scizzors I use to cut open the smack pack (I always imagine someone has cut their toe-nails with them) and also the outside of the smack pack. If you have infection problems, bleach, bleach, bleach everything!
Don't bother airating your starter by pumping air through it either.
Finally, how do you know that your starter is infected? In my experience a fresh starter can and usually does smell a bit funky. Especially if it contains no hops and is made from extract.

 

[jgriffin]

Hoops - yes i am diluting and storing, simply because trying to measure 2ml of the phos acid on brew day is a pain in the ass, it's much easier to squirt 10ml out of a little container. Maybe i'll try without

Darren - yeah, it's possible that the infection may have come from my stubbie starter in the fridge due to previous infection problems. Otherwise, maybe i need to move from the kitchen when i make my starters, i know it's not the best place, but unfortunately it's the only place i can really make up my starters.
All my starter kit is soaked in bleach after every use for a couple of days, then packed away, and soaked in phos for at least 1/2 and hour before i use it.

 

[sosman]

I am still using the Phos acid from the bulk buy and haven't had any problems at all.

[post="52200"][/post]​

I think you will find concentrated phos acid shelf life to be very long. Undiluted it won't lose its strength but some bacteria can live quite happily at pH 2 so I chuck mine out if it gets soiled.

As has already been suggested, use a variety of sanitisers but clean first otherwise it is a waste of time. Also consider a foaming agent for phos acid - it reaches much further into cracks and also is apparently more effective on busting cell walls.

Occasionally I use bleach just for variety but I use phos acid exclusively on brewday.

Measure out 20g (assuming 85%) of phos acid into 10 litres of water for brewday cleaning (pH ~2). Don't use it to wash, just sanitise. Among other things I recirculate this through my CFC.

 

[Gulf Brewery]

i am diluting and storing, simply because trying to measure 2ml of the phos acid on brew day is a pain in the ass.

[post="52230"][/post]​

Hi

I use a syringe (with measurement marks on it) with a piece of tubing for measuring sanitiser because I only use a few ml per litre. Just make the tube long enough to fit inside the bottle of acid/sterilant and measure how much it holds. It saves diluting and storing chemicals.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Trent]

JGriffin
I went through the same problem that you are going through, though I lost 5 brews in a row before I lost my shit and forked out for 2 glass carboys. Best move I ever made, now the old fermenters are for holding grain. First thing I did with the new fermenters was chuck out my old racking hose, I have a very strong suspicion that was the culprit. My beers went sour with white stuff floating ontop, I asked on Grumpy's what it could be, and from memory, the consensus seemed to be pediococcus. I ,too, was pedantic about cleaning, and always used bleach to sterilize my ferms before use. I know that it could get very expensive replacing all yer ferms and cubes, but basically every batch lost is about the value of a fermenter, and I think I saw a thread here advertising cubes for $2 a pop. Everyone else has given so much good info, so my opinion probably will make litte difference, but were it me, I would start by making some new yeast starters (after getting some one shot or similar), get some new racking hoses, and maybe even a couple of glass carboys, and some new cubes, or at the very least, as someone suggested, start eliminating the ferms/cubes one by one, there has to be at least a few that have no infection.
Hope this helps in some way, cause I would hate you to go through the pain of losing a fourth and fifth brew like silly old me did!
All the best
Trent

 

[jgriffin]

If you want cheap bleach, buy some bulk liquid pool chlorine. Exactly the same stuff, just stronger.

 

[Darren]

or buy dry pool chlorine, even cheaper. will probably need rinsing afterwards though