Brew Always Tastes Like Homebrew

[501]

Well, I cracked it today... its just over 2 weeks through, and it was a first for everything.
1. Brew tastes beautiful. The hops took away that sweet aftertaste just nicely, and it finishes dry due to the dry enzyme
2. Sheet i was given said to add 210g of dextrose to 23 L. I feel this was wrong as it is over carbonated.
But just to reiterate: Brew is deliciouse... I wont go back to no hops now!

Congradulations Liam dee

Couple of points / questions :-

Temperature control as above: Vital.

How long was that in the fermentor ?
approx - 2 weeks in bottle and 2 weeks in fermentor from 12th June?
That seems a little quick to me for lager yeast,
especially with dry enzyme....

I believe many people ferment lagers for around 4 weeks at 12 degrees?
then lager as well.

Dry Enzyme Use:
The enzyme makes fermentation take quite a bit longer.
I had 2 Corona clones like this that were nearly bottle bombs.
If I remember correctly they were fermented in the primary with ALE yeast for at least
21 days !
Hydrometer read 1.000 ~

Always use a hydrometer.
Record your results including hydrometer readings, process(es), taste, etc for future reference.

Carbonation 210 Grams of priming sugar:
That may be a little bit too much; I get 160-180 grams @ 20 degrees.
But I would bet that the over carbonation is a product of the dry enzyme,
and perhaps the use of Lager yeast that was not quite finished.

Lager yeast even without dry enzyme can take around twice as long,
to primary ferment and condition (minimum not talking proper lagering).

Gratz again on a successful brew,
heading in the right direction now.

You will never make great beer with extract, Thats just the way it is. Its the freshness you will miss out on.

More correct would be to say it is Difficult to make a great lager with extract ?
This is bs in relation to 'all' beers.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

In answer to the OP, the answer is quite simple.

Temp control, temp control, temp control.

Sure there are heaps of other variables as the guys say, but this is the biggest.

The reason homebrew gets twang, gets fruity gets esters, gets fusel notes is because your yeastie beasties in the drum are being cooked too high.

Get a Fridgemate, or a Tempmate, a manual fridge controller, or a thermostat, or a timer, or a heat pad thermostat, or an submersible aquarium heater, or simply forget the gear and brew in ambient temps that match the spec of your yeast (lagers in winter (when it's 10 degrees in the shed), ales in summer (when its 18-22 degrees)) then you'll hit the motherlode and get clean yummy beer.

Not sure what the temp range is for your yeast? Check the packet. Or better still, go to the Brewcellar, Wyeast, Fermentis or Whitelabs site and grab all the technical info on how to handle that particular yeast. Also realise that Brewcellar yeasts are actually repacked Fermentis yeasts. So if you're using European Lager Brewcellar, check the Fermentis guide for W34/70. If you're using American Ale Brewcellar, check the Fermentis guide for US-05. And so on.

Yeast handling and good temp control makes cleaner better brews. Bad yeast handling and temp control makes sharp tasting ones. The moment I realised this my beers went from the taste of toenail polish to clean heaven. Give it a bash and you'll see.

Hopper.

+1

If you don't want the fridge thing going, then brew beers 6 months in advance. I am now brewing beer I want to drink in summer, whilst it is cool enough to do so and not get estery beers - it makes it easier to have the chugger beers you like in summer, ready for summer. And plenty of time to age them well. I then in summer (usually feb or so) brew the winter beers - the dark beers, stouts, porters, dark amber with lots of hops, red ales. These beers do better with a higher temp fermenting yeast, tolerate alcohol well and esters in these beers are either acceptable or even desireable.

Plus, given that I don't want to drink these beers, when they are made, they have a better chance to make it to their season. Especially the darker beers - I don't like drinking them in summer - it's like drinking hot coffee in the middle of summer's day in the sun. The lighter beers - hell if I'm desperate, I might have one or two, but generally they make it to summer.

There is a reason why these things are! :drinks:

 

[megs80]

Seems I hit abit of a nerve with the extract and great beer call. Ive brewed with extract and made good beer with extract. My opinion is if you want to create beer as good as the great ones you can buy. You cant do it with wort reduced down to a syrup, tinned and shipped round the country.

 

[501]

Seems I hit abit of a nerve with the extract and great beer call. Ive brewed with extract and made good beer with extract. My opinion is if you want to create beer as good as the great ones you can buy. You cant do it with wort reduced down to a syrup, tinned and shipped round the country.

yeah I definitely agree it's not as good,
but - certain styles,
e.g. plenty of 'great' amber ales, Apas etc can be made with good extract imo.

Not all newer brewers have the time etc etc to go AG,
and some experienced Ag'ers brew extracts for quickies and make pretty darn good ones.
Cheers

 

[earle]

Yeast handling and good temp control makes cleaner better brews. Bad yeast handling and temp control makes sharp tasting ones. The moment I realised this my beers went from the taste of toenail polish to clean heaven. Give it a bash and you'll see.

Bear in mind that this also applies to yeast handling before it goes in the wort. I was recently running short and picked up a couple of brewcellar premium yeasts from Bowen HBS that were stored on the shelf unrefridgerated. Used them both in brews that I had previously made with success, with awful results. My advice is to make sure your supplier stores yeasts suitably as well.

 

[Pennywise]

Seems I hit abit of a nerve with the extract and great beer call. Ive brewed with extract and made good beer with extract. My opinion is if you want to create beer as good as the great ones you can buy. You cant do it with wort reduced down to a syrup, tinned and shipped round the country.

Not trying for a personal attack or anything, even though it may sound/look like it. But, just because you can't make great beer using extracts, doesn't mean I can't or anyone else can't. I can, and have and still do (and I've had much more experienced AG brewers tell me thay are great). I've done 2 AG brews so far, are they as good as some of my extract beers, no, doesn't mean you can't brew better beer with AG just because I can't yet. Have you made Neill's Cenetenarillo recipe, farkin :icon_drool2: , better than alot of beers on the shelf, I'm pretty sure BribieG has had kit recipes win comps (his headbanger stout I think, please correct me if I'm wrong BG), what about DrSmurto's Golden Ale recipe in kit or extract form? I've heard bloody good things about that. Like I said not trying to attack, I just know for a fact, you can make great beer using extract. Telling newbies that you absolutly can't is just going to drive some away from the hobby :beer:

 

[501]

Bear in mind that this also applies to yeast handling before it goes in the wort. I was recently running short and picked up a couple of brewcellar premium yeasts from Bowen HBS that were stored on the shelf unrefridgerated. Used them both in brews that I had previously made with success, with awful results. My advice is to make sure your supplier stores yeasts suitably as well.

Sorry to go off topic a bit,
Brewcellar yeasts,
I had a problem with one firing recently as well,
hbs here has them in fridge But no use by could be found on the offending
yank ale yeast, the other brew (s04 brewcellar type) fired as usual.

Should there be a seperate use by sticker that has perhaps been removed on these,
or does anyone know the code for the stamps?
cheers :icon_chickcheers:

 

[boybrewer]

yeah I definitely agree it's not as good,
but - certain styles,
e.g. plenty of 'great' amber ales, Apas etc can be made with good extract imo.

Not all newer brewers have the time etc etc to go AG,
and some experienced Ag'ers brew extracts for quickies and make pretty darn good ones.
Cheers

I disagree with that you can make a good beer with extract but not by extract alone except for Niels centenarillo and a couple of other brews listed in the recipe DB, mixing it with a few grains , some nice hop combo's and a good yeast to the style you are brewing with , can make a damn fine brew . I have proven this with a third place in the latest comp with a tin of goo and this was a stout


Cheers
Beerbelly

 

[unrealeous]

Temp control, temp control, temp control.

+1

And next on the list that's helped my beers is getting the pitching rate right... Here a little experiment
http://seanterrill.com/2010/05/09/yeast-pi...g-rate-results/

 

[petesbrew]

Yes we know AG rocks, but I've tasted some pretty downright crook AG beers as well.
Yep, Extract has it's limitations, but with the convenience and what you can do with it, you can't turn your nose up at it. Geez, what do you think partials have in them?

I'll put my flame suit on, and say it all comes down to the brewer, the gear and ingredients he has at his disposal, and his knowledge, experience, creativity & willing to take risks.

I've made some pretty downright shocking beers but they're all a lesson well learnt, especially the fermenter full of infected AG beer that goes down the laundry sink. THAT sucks.

Back to work

 

[WarmBeer]

Sorry to go off topic a bit,
Brewcellar yeasts,
I had a problem with one firing recently as well,
hbs here has them in fridge But no use by could be found on the offending
yank ale yeast, the other brew (s04 brewcellar type) fired as usual.

Should there be a seperate use by sticker that has perhaps been removed on these,
or does anyone know the code for the stamps?
cheers :icon_chickcheers:

Same here, had an (admittedly old) pack of the Brewcellar American Ale, took over 48 hours to show any krausen or condensation on my glad wrap.

Once it fired up, it was fine, but 48 is a loooooooong time to be paranoid about infections making their way in.

 

[ballzac]

HB79, Ballzac is being technically correct. 15 psi is equivalent to 1 atmosphere of pressure. This is the "strenuous" pressure we live under each and every day.

Now, as to it contributing to re-absorbtion of the CO2 layer back into the beer, I'll call BS, but am open to reasoned, well argued debate.

Yep. That's what I meant. And sorry for going off-topic to an extent, but I just want to give my reasoning. The pressures normally used in kegging are actual gauge pressures. That is, they are stated as quantities above atmospheric pressure. So when you have your keg pressurised at '15 PSI', this is a gauge pressure, and actually means that there is about 30 PSI in the keg. If a keg is under this pressure at 15C, about 2 volumes of CO2 should be dissolved in the beer when it is saturated (I got this from one of the carbonation spreadsheets). If the temperature is dropped to 2C, and the pressure kept constant, the volumes of CO2 should increase to 3 (given time, perhaps a week?).

It seems to me that the same principles should be at work at atmospheric pressure, which is not negligible, but is half the absolute pressure that I was referring to in the kegging scenario, unless there is a reason that it shouldn't. I too am quite open to the idea that my argument is flawed, but a 'hunch' isn't enough to convince me . Of course, if this process takes a week or something in a keg, it would possibly take even longer at half the pressure. This means that if you have a beer that fermented at 20C and then quickly chill prior to carbonation, it will make FA difference. But what if you were lagering (in a CO2 purged lagering tank) or some other similar scenario? It could make a real difference to the amount of dissolved CO2, so it is an important point to get right.

Perhaps an experiment is in order B)

 

[Pennywise]

Thanks for your eplanaition on your reasoning ballzac. Makes sense to me now what you meant. I still don't believe that under normal fermenter conditions that co2 would re-absorb, think of it this way, if it's coming out of solution at 15psi, then wouldn't it need to be higher for it to re-absorb, regardless of the temperature? Would be a little different in a purged keg I spose, if you left it pressurised but not hooked up to the gas, it would eventually reach equilibrium and absorb some of it. Sorry for even further :icon_offtopic:

 

[ballzac]

if it's coming out of solution at 15psi, then wouldn't it need to be higher for it to re-absorb, regardless of the temperature?

PV=NRT
So in some ways, a decrease in temperature is equivalent to an increase in pressure (over-simplified I know).

 

[pcmfisher]

Yes there is 15psi on the top of the beer in the fermenter, but there is also 15psi on all outsides of the fermenter effectively meaning no pressure difference.

 

[ballzac]

Yes there is 15psi on the top of the beer in the fermenter, but there is also 15psi on all outsides of the fermenter effectively meaning no pressure difference.

It's the same as in a keg, but in a keg the pressure is provided by the rigidity of the steel. The most important thing, as far as I can gather, is the pressure at the interface of the beer and CO2.

EDIT: This discussion really belongs in the discussion topic for the wiki article, I'll copy it from here and we can continue it there.

 

[bum]

For the record, I got mine for my birthday. B)

I had to buy mine for myself as no one loves me.

I think some of us are forgetting that liquids generally don't want gases dissolved in them and it'll take more than ambient pressure to force it to.

And, if I may, I'd like to present another perspective on HoppingMad's (very good) advice. The importance of temp control in this game is accepted by pretty much everyone - this importance can't be understated...but...I can tell you from bitter personal experience that temp control will not completely get rid of kit twang. High temps will promote it but fermenting at the cool end for your yeast will not prevent twang's presence in a beer.

 

[ballzac]

Carbonation/pressure/temperature tangent is now quoted in the wiki discussion topic: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry651619
Please continue it there as I think it is both interesting and important

 

[megs80]

Not trying for a personal attack or anything, even though it may sound/look like it. But, just because you can't make great beer using extracts, doesn't mean I can't or anyone else can't. I can, and have and still do (and I've had much more experienced AG brewers tell me thay are great). I've done 2 AG brews so far, are they as good as some of my extract beers, no, doesn't mean you can't brew better beer with AG just because I can't yet. Have you made Neill's Cenetenarillo recipe, farkin :icon_drool2: , better than alot of beers on the shelf, I'm pretty sure BribieG has had kit recipes win comps (his headbanger stout I think, please correct me if I'm wrong BG), what about DrSmurto's Golden Ale recipe in kit or extract form? I've heard bloody good things about that. Like I said not trying to attack, I just know for a fact, you can make great beer using extract. Telling newbies that you absolutly can't is just going to drive some away from the hobby :beer:

Dont worry no harm done. Im not knocking extract. My Ag brews arent as good as what my extract brews were yet. I even had an extract brew place 2nd in last years NSW comp. The thread started with beer having that homebrew taste. Most of the problem flavours are becouse of fermentation, I think most of us agree with that. There are also flavours associated with extract which can be put down to a homebrewy flavour. I think this becouse of the freshness of the extract. Maybe the places I got my extract from werent that fresh. Also I used term great beer. A great beer to me is a bottle of pliny or saison du pont. Maybe I should have said 50 point beer, or maybe I should have shut up ,dont know.
Anyway you do it your still making beer. Which is awesome!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Dont worry no harm done. Im not knocking extract. My Ag brews arent as good as what my extract brews were yet. I even had an extract brew place 2nd in last years NSW comp. The thread started with beer having that homebrew taste. Most of the problem flavours are becouse of fermentation, I think most of us agree with that. There are also flavours associated with extract which can be put down to a homebrewy flavour. I think this becouse of the freshness of the extract. Maybe the places I got my extract from werent that fresh. Also I used term great beer. A great beer to me is a bottle of pliny or saison du pont. Maybe I should have said 50 point beer, or maybe I should have shut up ,dont know.
Anyway you do it your still making beer. Which is awesome!

The best extract beers are the ones made with grains as an adjunct (other than good yeast).

I brewed kit for 2 years, extract for 10 years and I'm a few batches in with AG. So I'm not an extract-snob, telling everyone to "go to AG, it's the best".

I found that my dark ales were extremely forgiving with extract. Generally the dark roast and the adjuncts I put in it were able to mask the twang - I had a lot of friends that drank stout and dark beer, so I made a helluva lot and they financed some brews on their behalf, so something good about extract brew.

My lighter coloured beers weren't bad, but I find my AG lighter coloured beers are signficantly better - and that is only BIAB.

The things I believe make the best extract brews (other than yeast control, which has been sufficiently espoused) is:

1. Good quality extract (get it unhopped) and a good quantity of it. Don't be stingy.

2. Learn your hops and how to use them - this and unhopped extract are the biggest jumps in quality and personal touch (other than yeast) an extract/kit brewer can achieve.

3. Grains and adjuncts add depth to your beer. Learn how to use them properly. As a side benefit, if you want to try AG, it makes the learning curve less steep.

4. Avoid cane sugar. If you want more alcohol, increase the extract volume. Cane sugar I found is generally the biggest culprit in me getting twang. As soon as I ditched it, my brews got signficantly better. When progressing from kits & bits to extract you need to lose the cane sugar training wheels.

5. Go for beers that will forgive fruity esters - hoppy amber ales and pale ales, porter, stout. If you can't get rid of twang, you can hide it among the desireable flavours.

6. Don't use the cooper's tin yeast. If you obey point 1, this shouldn't be an issue.