Bottling beer thats been carbed with Nitro?

[Truman42]

Hi guys, Just wondering if anyone has kegged and carbed up a beer using nitro and then managed to bottle using a CPBF with that nitro beer? Im thinking of buying a small nitro setup but wait to bottle a few beers to give to mates etc?

 

[MHB]

I think if it was easy, we wouldn't have cans with "widgets".
Be fun to watch you trying, considering how fast Nitrogen comes out of solution - well take a video.
Buckets of foam is what I would expect but wont know till you try.
Mark

 

[Grmblz]

Don't think it will work without a widget or an ultrasonic plate to bring the nitro out of solution.

 

[Grmblz]

It's why you have the plate with little holes in a nitro tap, nucleation points.
I'm worried now disagreeing with Mark but my observations are Nitrogen needs coaxing out of solution. Happy to be corrected of course.

 

[Truman42]

I think if it was easy, we wouldn't have cans with "widgets".
Be fun to watch you trying, considering how fast Nitrogen comes out of solution - well take a video.
Buckets of foam is what I would expect but wont know till you try.
Mark

Not every can has a widgets. 4 Pines Nitro stout is in bottles and has no widgets. Either does One drop mango Milkshake IPA. Which is why I asked as it seems they can bottle/can without using widgets??

 

[MHB]

Ok Grmblz
The little holes are all about back pressure. When we use a mixed gas, we still want the same amount of dissolved CO2 in the beer. Say we used 60/40 (always expressed N2 first then CO2) and we wanted in for instance a stout 4g/l of dissolved CO2 at 5oC, we would need 50kPa to reach equilibrium. The gas is only 40% CO2 so we need
50/0.4=125kPa, that would be a very low carbed stout. For something like Harp you need around 250kPa. Problem then is when you open the tap, the beer tends to do a U-turn in the bottom of the glass and hit you in the eye. Hence the flow control plate. Easy enough to look up the solubility of N2 and CO2, believe me it doesn't take much coaxing to get it down to equilibrium. Turns out its N2 0.019g/L and CO2 1.69g/L (at 0oC and zero gauge) CO2 is nearly 90 times more soluable.

Trumsn
Haven't had either of those beers, considering the very real upper limits on the containers pressure ratings, I would be surprised if they got anything like the performance we get from widget packaging, have a read of the "widget" link above for why.
Mark

 

[Grmblz]

Looong time ago on the Canary islands, walked into a bar and saw Guinness "on tap" wtf? Yep have one please, guy grabs a bottle (long neck) from the fridge, opens it and pours it (flat as a tack) that's water flat btw into a glass, I'm now in wtf mode, he puts the glass onto a little round metal plate and F me it starts to cascade, apparently it was an ultrasonic vibration plate good for cleaning jewellery and bringing nitro out of solution, dunno I was a little sideways by the time I left but I've always wanted one of those little plate things. As for 4 Pines is it possible they're using co2 nitro mix? Depending on ratio you could have your smoooth and fizz. (pure speculation)

 

[Grmblz]

Sorry Mark your post came up after I hit enter, doin three things at once here,

 

[Grmblz]

Would still love to know what the heck was going on in the Canary island bar

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Guinness do a bottled stout without a widget, so do Left Hand Brewery, Nitro Milk Stout.

 

[MHB]

Would still love to know what the heck was going on in the Canary island bar

I regularly degas beer in an ultrasound before measuring it (little bubbles in a 10mm cell make for some interesting readings in a UV/Vis).
Get exactly the same effect as the little plate thing Guinness made; just normally carbonated (all CO2, no N2) beer in an ultrasound. The ultrasound causes nucleation lots of it so you get very fine bubbles and that look (and flatter beer) You can get a cheap ultrasound on eBay for $30 or so if you want to have a play.

That Left Hand Stout looks like a pretty piss poor version of a cream pour, but that's exactly what I would expect from a non-widget Nitro bottled beer.
Mark

 

[Grmblz]

I regularly degas beer in an ultrasound before measuring it (little bubbles in a 10mm cell make for some interesting readings in a UV/Vis).
Get exactly the same effect as the little plate thing Guinness made; just normally carbonated (all CO2, no N2) beer in an ultrasound. The ultrasound causes nucleation lots of it so you get very fine bubbles and that look (and flatter beer) You can get a cheap ultrasound on eBay for $30 or so if you want to have a play.
Mark

Sooo much to learn, and so little time, thanks for that Mark, that particular conundrum has been floating around in the back of my head for years, fwiw I've just spent half an hour pouring beer from glass to glass to get rid of the co2 (my usual process) to get a hydro reading, going to get an ultra sound plate, why didn't I think of that, more to the point why isn't it more commonly known as the easiest way to get flat beer (more accurate hydro reading)

 

[MHB]

Pretty common appliance in any brewery with a lab, and very effective. If you get one of the ones for jewellery cleaning put 25-50mm of water in tank, about 1/2-2/3 fill a glass (beaker) and zap it for well 5-10 minutes or until it stops bubbling. Without the water in the tank, the glass will chatter, for me its one of those fingernails down a blackboard type of noises.
Mark

 

[Truman42]

Ok Grmblz
The little holes are all about back pressure. When we use a mixed gas, we still want the same amount of dissolved CO2 in the beer. Say we used 60/40 (always expressed N2 first then CO2) and we wanted in for instance a stout 4g/l of dissolved CO2 at 5oC, we would need 50kPa to reach equilibrium. The gas is only 40% CO2 so we need
50/0.4=125kPa, that would be a very low carbed stout. For something like Harp you need around 250kPa. Problem then is when you open the tap, the beer tends to do a U-turn in the bottom of the glass and hit you in the eye. Hence the flow control plate. Easy enough to look up the solubility of N2 and CO2, believe me it doesn't take much coaxing to get it down to equilibrium. Turns out its N2 0.019g/L and CO2 1.69g/L (at 0oC and zero gauge) CO2 is nearly 90 times more soluable.

Trumsn
Haven't had either of those beers, considering the very real upper limits on the containers pressure ratings, I would be surprised if they got anything like the performance we get from widget packaging, have a read of the "widget" link above for why.
Mark

Ive had both and they both pour with a decent cascading effect like Guinness. You have to pour from height and the Mango Milkshake can says to shake the can twice then pour from a height.

 

[Truman42]

Dos anyone know if you have to sue special food grade Nitrogen or if the disposable cylinders at plumbing stores will do the same job? Ive read that beer Nitro is a mix of Nitro and CO2 but it doesnt seem to say that on the cylinders that are sold at kegland and other brew stores etc.

 

[Grmblz]

Nitro is Nitro, beer gas is a mix of Nitrogen and CO2, and the ratios vary according to what you are doing, as far as I know no-one is selling beer gas in a disposable container, my understanding is the CO2 percentage keeps the beer carbonated at the desired level whilst the Nitrogen provides the pressure to push the beer through the lines, Nitrogen doesn't dissolve into liquid as easily as CO2 so if you need 30psi to get a pour and only use CO2 you end up with over carbonated beer but if you use Nitrogen only then the beer goes flat, so a mix keeps the bubbles and the pressure, sorry if my explanation is a bit convoluted

 

[Moojie]

Thanks heaps for all the info in this thread, I’m new to keging and even more so nitro.
After dumping a nitro bottle overnight due to a dodgy reg I think, so I’ve gone with CO2,

think you have all answered my question above, was wanting to know if it’s an issue going from CO2 to n2.
From reading, doesn’t look like that’s an issue.

really no idea what I’m doing with pressuring, have the CO2 at around 12psi, if I was to put a n2 tank back on, would I just bump it up to 35ish psi, and leave it for how long? Or should be fine to just use n2 to pour.

just love the way nitro drinks....

 

[MHB]

Before you try to get control of mixed gas dispense, it would be a good idea to get your head around normal carbonation and hopefully some of the maths that underpins it. Have a read through the relevant sections on Braukaiser.
From there if you google up mixed gasses you will find heaps but these look Ok at first glance -
Nitrogenate Your Homebrew
mixed-gas dispense
Personally having done it, I think Nitro guts the beer, lots of the big roasty flavours in dark beer are muted, likewise hops in highly hopped beers, not to mention all the other malty, estery flavours.
Just brew low flavour beer and serve it less carbonated gets you pretty much the same taste. Wont imitate the mouthfeel of a nitro beer, that is pretty unique.
Mark

 

[Moojie]

Before you try to get control of mixed gas dispense, it would be a good idea to get your head around normal carbonation and hopefully some of the maths that underpins it. Have a read through the relevant sections on Braukaiser.
From there if you google up mixed gasses you will find heaps but these look Ok at first glance -
Nitrogenate Your Homebrew
mixed-gas dispense
Personally having done it, I think Nitro guts the beer, lots of the big roasty flavours in dark beer are muted, likewise hops in highly hopped beers, not to mention all the other malty, estery flavours.
Just brew low flavour beer and serve it less carbonated gets you pretty much the same taste. Wont imitate the mouthfeel of a nitro beer, that is pretty unique.
Mark

Thanks for the resources, definitely haven’t looked into the maths of it, will need to give that a read.
Should give me some time to brew another and keg it “properly”

thanks Mark.

 

[Malted Mick]

Bloody interesting and informative posts! Keepum coming folks.