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pfitz

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G'Day all,

I have a question regarding Boil time.

A lot of recipes for all grain have a boil time of 90 minutes, as I am new to all grain having only had one go at it so far, a Cascade as recommended by the good folks at Craft Brewers, which I might say turned out not to shabby.
I am doing BIAB as the starting point to AGB, have a 40L urn etc. but am a bit confused as to the differences a 60 to 90 minute boil would make.

What difference will it make other than evaporating off some water in the wort?

Most of the recipes have hop additions starting at 60 minutes, what happens to the other 30 minutes?, is it really needed?

As I said, rather new to all grain but just wondering why.


BTW... If anyone in the Brisvagis area doing BIAB could stand a newbee hanging around and asking dumb questions on a brew day, just give me a shout....



Thanks for your time.
 

jaypes

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Depending on the recipe the extra 30 mins is to convert some starches to sugars in the grain
 

doon

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Drives off dms??
 

keifer33

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Depending on the recipe the extra 30 mins is to convert some starches to sugars in the grain
Think you might be thinking of the mash there.

If using a pilsner malt as a large percentage of your base grain it is best to boil for 90 mins to drive off dms. It can also allow you to sparge/have more liquid thus extract a bit more, thus efficiency can be increased. It might only be a couple of litres on a normal 20ish litre batch so not a huge difference.

Also on some bigger beers this is required and might have a 120+ min boil to allow to sparge more and there is something called a mallard reaction that is sometimes sought after.
 

felten

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Depending on the recipe the extra 30 mins is to convert some starches to sugars in the grain
You might be confusing boiling with mashing.


It's 30 minutes of more melanoidin production.

Is it really needed? no, not really. Unless you're suffering from excess DMS in your beer and are trying to reduce it. Or if you notice a difference and prefer it.
 

Crusty

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60mins for me.
I've made quite a few beers with a large percentage of Pilsner malt before & a 60min boil is fine.
Beers turned out great.
 

stux

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90 mins is also supposed to help coagulating the proteins, break formation, and other good stuff
 

Cocko

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Some good reading here

And here

And many more threads too...

Personally, I get to the boil, chill until the next easy clock count for hop additions -eg. if its 7 minutes until 1pm - I wait until 1 for my 60 minute addition.

Its not so critical.

Bar, if you read the above links with pils malt... apparently.

2c.
 

jaypes

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Yes you guys are correct, was reading boiling but was thinking mashing

So depending on the recipe 90 minute mash to fully convert everything

90 min boil to reduce DMS (will also have more pre-boil wort for evaporation)
 

pfitz

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Thanks guys,
It all seems a bit clearer now, seems to be the eradication or reducing the level / presense of DMS is the primary concern.
From my limited understanding this is not so much of an issue these days with the quality of malts available.
Thanks for clearing it up.
 

manticle

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Hop utilisation, development of colour, flavour and appropriate gravity, reduction of unpleasant/unwanted volatiles including SMM -> DMS, formation of proteinaceous material are all factors. It's multiple things, not one thing.

As a rule, I boil for at least 15 minutes before adding the first hop addition (hot break can supposedly interfere with hop utilisation) but more often than not, I'll boil for 20-30, so 80-90 mins all up and sometimes more for some beers.

Lots of things happen in a boil - try making a wee heavy with only Maris otter but boiling for 180 mins - loads of lovely deep colour, caramel flavours etc.
 

Punkal

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Yep I boil for areound 15 mins before the the first hop addition. No particular reason but I find the beer turns out a little clearer when boil for a little longer (could be my imagination).
 

Screwtop

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Hop utilisation, development of colour, flavour and appropriate gravity, reduction of unpleasant/unwanted volatiles including SMM -> DMS, formation of proteinaceous material are all factors. It's multiple things, not one thing.

As a rule, I boil for at least 15 minutes before adding the first hop addition (hot break can supposedly interfere with hop utilisation) but more often than not, I'll boil for 20-30.

Lots of things happen in a boil - try making a wee heavy with only Maris otter but boiling for 180 mins - loads of lovely deep colour, caramel flavours etc.

Wot E says!!!

Screwy
 

Thirsty Boy

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Sometimes its wise to boil for 90miins - for the reasons stated above and not really many more. Probably more important if you are a no-chiller too.

So occasionally you will boil for 90mins and the rest of the time could happily boil for 60mins. Ask yourself - as a newer brewer - Will you be sure which is which? - Even if you are right, do you really want to have to go to the trouble of learning how your system works when you sparge enough for a 60min boil AND when you sparge enough for a 90min boil? - what sort of difference in performance will your burner/element give you when you are using it with the different volumes? - and we could go on and on.....

I always boil for 90mins - not because its always required, but because sometimes it is and I dont want to have to learn how my brewery works in two different sets of circumstances.... its hard enough as it is.

My suggestion for someone starting out

Mash for 90mins & Boil for 90mins (adding hops from the 60min mark or as per your recipe)

That will work, all the time.

Once you have a dozen or two brews under your belt and ings are starting to become predicatable in your brewery, then try cutting one or the other back to 60mins. See what differeence it makes to your brewery's performance, see if that difference is consistent and predictable - decide whether the 30mins of time saving (and a bit of gas or electricity too) is worth the effort of the mental and physical adjustments you have to make in order to swap.

Also when you are new - the 30min of "dead" time at the start will give you a chance to adjust things before you make your hop additions (cant take em back once they hit the wort) - you can measure the gravity you got and the volume you got (let the wort hit the boil for 1 min, turn off the heat for a second or three, measure the volume, take a sample, heat back on and start your timer) and decide to adjust with extract, add water, add sugar, boil it down to the correct volume, have time for your sample to cool, have time to recalculate your hop additions.... in order to adjust for any dofference between what you were expecting and what you got.

For a newer brewer, that 30min is never going to be wasted - even if you dont do anything other than reassure yourself its all going to plan.

TB
 

rotten

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Sometimes its wise to boil for 90miins - for the reasons stated above and not really many more. Probably more important if you are a no-chiller too.

So occasionally you will boil for 90mins and the rest of the time could happily boil for 60mins. Ask yourself - as a newer brewer - Will you be sure which is which? - Even if you are right, do you really want to have to go to the trouble of learning how your system works when you sparge enough for a 60min boil AND when you sparge enough for a 90min boil? - what sort of difference in performance will your burner/element give you when you are using it with the different volumes? - and we could go on and on.....

I always boil for 90mins - not because its always required, but because sometimes it is and I dont want to have to learn how my brewery works in two different sets of circumstances.... its hard enough as it is.

My suggestion for someone starting out

Mash for 90mins & Boil for 90mins (adding hops from the 60min mark or as per your recipe)

That will work, all the time.

Once you have a dozen or two brews under your belt and ings are starting to become predicatable in your brewery, then try cutting one or the other back to 60mins. See what differeence it makes to your brewery's performance, see if that difference is consistent and predictable - decide whether the 30mins of time saving (and a bit of gas or electricity too) is worth the effort of the mental and physical adjustments you have to make in order to swap.

Also when you are new - the 30min of "dead" time at the start will give you a chance to adjust things before you make your hop additions (cant take em back once they hit the wort) - you can measure the gravity you got and the volume you got (let the wort hit the boil for 1 min, turn off the heat for a second or three, measure the volume, take a sample, heat back on and start your timer) and decide to adjust with extract, add water, add sugar, boil it down to the correct volume, have time for your sample to cool, have time to recalculate your hop additions.... in order to adjust for any dofference between what you were expecting and what you got.

For a newer brewer, that 30min is never going to be wasted - even if you dont do anything other than reassure yourself its all going to plan.

TB
With all due respect (and it is due IMHO) thats a whole lot of fapping about for nothing. Boil till after hot break and add first hop addition. That may be after 15 mins of boil, it may be after 5. Unless you are brewing a very specific target or for lagers, or god forbid a comp of some sort it's not neccassary.

My 2c
 

labels

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With all due respect (and it is due IMHO) thats a whole lot of fapping about for nothing. Boil till after hot break and add first hop addition. That may be after 15 mins of boil, it may be after 5. Unless you are brewing a very specific target or for lagers, or god forbid a comp of some sort it's not neccassary.

My 2c
I don't disagree with Manticle on this IF you are aiming for specific styles. However, I also agree with you. I always bring things down to the lowest common demoninator so, if 60 mins for mash and boil is enough then that's it, everything else is a time and energy waster.

-=Steve=-
 

Thirsty Boy

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With all due respect (and it is due IMHO) thats a whole lot of fapping about for nothing. Boil till after hot break and add first hop addition. That may be after 15 mins of boil, it may be after 5. Unless you are brewing a very specific target or for lagers, or god forbid a comp of some sort it's not neccassary.

My 2c
I always brew to very specific targets - the targets in my recipe. And because I take the care to engage in a little "fapping about" - I always hit them.

I see a very large distinction between "just making beer" and "making the beer you intended to make" - i'm completely uninterested in the first and have devoted years of effort to the second. I reckon I can afford 30mins added to my brew day to make room for the difference.

to each their own
 

crd0902

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Hi all I'm just setting up my equipment for brewing AG, still need a stainless tap for keggle and chiller of sorts and I'm doin heaps of reading. Probably too much but I keep reading this 'boil till after hot break'. I understand what hot break is in the sense and its left in the bottom of the pot after whirlpool or whatever but what would I be looking for while its boiling. Is it clumps, haze, foam or colour and does it just disappear. Thank you
Chris
 

goid

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Hi all I'm just setting up my equipment for brewing AG, still need a stainless tap for keggle and chiller of sorts and I'm doin heaps of reading. Probably too much but I keep reading this 'boil till after hot break'. I understand what hot break is in the sense and its left in the bottom of the pot after whirlpool or whatever but what would I be looking for while its boiling. Is it clumps, haze, foam or colour and does it just disappear. Thank you
Chris

What you will see is a creamy foam layer on top of your wort form when getting it up to boilling. You can't miss it. It covers the top of your pot. Once you have a steady boil for a while it will start to circulate through the wort with the boilling action.

Goid
 

crd0902

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Thanks for that. Still a few weeks from cookup yet but now I know what I'm looking for. For record everything I read seems to suggest me being new to AG to do a 90 min mash and boil so that's me.
Cheers chris
 

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