Bittering With Flavour Additions

[Boots]

In one of my many homebrew day dreaming sessions I started wondering what would the overall affect on a beer be if you bittered your beer, using flavour / aroma additions only?

Please note: this is purely hypothetical, I'm just trying to learn something about the bittering process .....

I know it wouldn't be the most efficient use of hops, but lets say you wanted a 30 IBU beer using centennial (hop picked at random). But instead of adding bittering hops for a 60 minute boil, you added all hops in a single throw with 10 minutes left in the boil. Promash says you'd need to add just under 100gms for the 30IBU (assuming a wort of 1040).

I'm imagining this would give you a beer with a massive hop aroma and flavour hit, while still maintaining a relatively low / normal bitterness which even the most squeamish could handle.

The direction of my questioning is: Would the bitterness be any different doing it this way (ie. would it be less stable over time, harsher, smoother, etc), over going the more normal (sensible) method of adding bittering early in the boil?

Would the beer be adversly affected? Perhaps the beer might not be considered balanced.... ?

All opinions welcome

 

[wedge]

i dont think this would work. I think the hop flavour would over power the flavour of your beer, you would taste only hop, no malt or yeast flavour

 

[Jovial_Monk]

why not do a pilot batch of beer, say 6L, andreport back?

Jovial Monk

 

[joecast]

hmmm. 10og centennial @ 10min. 30ibu, 1.040 OG??

is this what they refer to as a hop tea?? sounds like it could be a bit unbalanced. i would be interested in how it turned out though.
joe

 

[warrenlw63]

Fair chance it would taste like vegie soup??

Fortune favours the brave (I'm a coward) - experiment a little.

Warren -

 

[Boots]

the 30IBU, and 1040 were purely points of reference. I'm not talking about a particular beer etc, it was more whether the time boiled would affect the bitterness profile.... i don't think I making much sense ....

Would 30 IBU obtained by a 60 min boil have the same effect on a beer as 30 IBU obtained in a 10min boil (ignoring all other variables)? Would the shorter boil time make any differences to the stability / lifetime of the bitterness. Would it break down faster.? Would it taste harsher?

That's what I aiming at.

I guess experimentation is the best way to find out ... (i'm lazy)

 

[Snow]

I think you'd die from hop poisoning

Oh well - at least your beer could never get an infection with allthat hop oil in there!

 

[user 384]

Boots

I think I understand what you are talking about. And my guess is that there would be little difference in the harshness or stability etc of the beers bitterness. The bitterness imparted by hops is produced by the isomerisation of the alpha acids. So I presume it doesn't matter, in terms of the bitterness, at what time in the boil this reaction takes place, as long as it takes place. What we do know is that isomerisation of the available alpha acids is more complete the longer the hops is boiled, with a diminishing rate of utilisation, with 60mins accepted as a good balance between utilisation, energy use etc.

The exception to the above theory is FWH, it supposedly makes for a less harsh bitterness, but know really knows why (or if it really does). Isomerisation is isomerisation!

However, as others have indicated that by relying on a low utilisation rate associated with 10mins, you would have to use a load of hops to reached your desired IBU's. This would then have implications for level of hops flavouring compounds that would make it's way into the final product, and probably mean the beer would be out of balance.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Gulf Brewery]

The interesting thing would be to try two batches with hops that have wildly different Humulene levels. Something like green bullet vs Saaz

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Boots]

MAH - that's exactly what I was asking.

I realise it's not something you'd ordinarily do to that extreme, but I was curious whether boil length had any effect other than efficiency.

Pedro, I'm not familiar with Humulenes :huh: - I'll have to do a bit of reading :unsure:

Thanks for the responses
Boots

 

[Boots]

I'm just dragging this thread up, with some new information.

I've been listening to the Brewing Network radio show archives, and just listened to the one dated 21-08-05 where they had Matt from Firestone Brewing on as the guest. It also happened to be their "drunk" show. He's a hop specialist (organic chemistry degree, and then worked for a company developing hop extracts etc).

One of their beers is made with all late additions, and is apparently really good going on what the guys were saying when they tried it. Using all late additions apparently makes for a really smooth, highly hoppy character in the beer. They also mentioned judging a standout beer in a competition which was really hoppy, but very smooth at the same time, and apparently the beer had been brewed with late additions only.

So it seems that it's a good way to go to get a beer with massive hop flavour and aroma, without over bittering. I'm brewing an apa tomorrow for the christmas case, so I think I'll go with all hops added 20 minutes and after to see how it goes.

There was a heap of good info on hops, i.e. pellet vs leaf etc in that show, so I highly recommend you download and have a listen.

Cheers
Boots

 

[Jye]

Last week I tried Ross's Arrogant Pom APA and liked it so much Im going to try an apa with all late additions of cascade and amarillo this weekend... the more the later the better :beerbang:

 

[tangent]

i think there was a guy in 'brew like a monk' who said he was bittering with high AA late addition hops. Fuggles and something else he was using i think.
Although i don't think he was aiming for 30ibu.

 

[Boots]

I think that the IPA they were talking about was in the mid / high 40's (IBU). So it was an ablsolute truckload of hops.

 

[Ross]

I'm tending to go with just late additions (20 mins & less) for my apa's now, able to get more flavour/aroma without going crazy on the IBU's...

 

[tangent]

so you're not adding any hops at the start Ross?
you seem to use a sh!tload of hops

 

[Ross]

so you're not adding any hops at the start Ross?
you seem to use a sh!tload of hops

[post="87674"][/post]​

Tangent, as per yesterdays post here's my latest American style ale, no hops longer than 20 mins..

American Amber Ale

Type: All Grain
Date: 31/10/2005
Batch Size: 30.00 L
Brewer: Ross
Boil Size: 42.96 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.70 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (3.0 SRM) Grain 72.5 %
1.00 kg Munich, Dark (Joe White) (15.0 SRM) Grain 15.4 %
0.50 kg Crystal, Dark (Joe White) (125.0 SRM) Grain 7.7 %
0.25 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.9 %
0.03 kg Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 0.5 %
30.00 gm Fuggles [5.00%] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
10.00 gm Simcoe [13.60%] (20 min) Hops 7.2 IBU
10.00 gm Palisade [9.00%] (20 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
10.00 gm Challenger [7.00%] (20 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
15.00 gm Simcoe [13.60%] (5 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
5.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.90%] (20 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (90 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 2.4 IBU
15.00 gm Palisade [9.10%] (5 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
26.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (5 min) Hops 2.1 IBU
20.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (2 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
20.00 gm Palisade [9.00%] (2 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 %
Bitterness: 39.2 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l
Est Color: 15.4 SRM Color: Color
Mash at 65c - Batch sparge

 

[deebee]

Ross,

I'm guessing you don't have a few drinks before emarking on that hopping schedule.

DB

 

[Ross]

Ross,

I'm guessing you don't have a few drinks before emarking on that hopping schedule.

DB

[post="87691"][/post]​

You might be wrong there :chug:

 

[Ross]

My APA was marked down in the Nationals for lack of hop aroma/flavour - I think this was mainly down to my bad storage technique for the bottles, having read recently that considerable aroma is lost through warm storage within a very short period.
This is one way of hopefully putting the balance back in my favour...