I'm attempting a Duvel clone with 1388 soon and I had a question about the starter. I've done a search and the figure of 1:10 keeps cropping up. i.e, if you have a slurry of 250ml yeast, make a fresh wort of 2.5 litres and pitch the slurry onto that. I use DME to make starters and for a normal (4-5%) beer I use about half a cup into three cups of water. This being the case and taking into account the 1:10 ratio, would the second (or stepped-up wort) use 5-6 cups of DME boiled with 2.5 litres of water?
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sah
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Gday TinTin,
I understand that all starters should be of modest gravity (1.030 - 1.040). The reason is to not stress the yeast and to provide the yeast optimal conditions for strengthening their cell walls so to speak.
When you read about a recommended pitching ratio, it is referring to the volume of a wort saturated with strong healthy yeast being pitched into a larger (x10) wort.
I hope I've understood your question correctly.
regards
Scott
I understand that all starters should be of modest gravity (1.030 - 1.040). The reason is to not stress the yeast and to provide the yeast optimal conditions for strengthening their cell walls so to speak.
When you read about a recommended pitching ratio, it is referring to the volume of a wort saturated with strong healthy yeast being pitched into a larger (x10) wort.
I hope I've understood your question correctly.
regards
Scott
I probably didn't make myself crystal clear...I'm making a starter for a normal batch, then pitching that (at krausen) into the ten-fold wort. The yeast from this would power up the big Belgian (I hope). Just wondering about DME quantities.
Green Iguana
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Tintin,
Always aim for an SG of 1040 for your starters. That means 100g of dry malt extract per 1 L water. I usually make a 1L wort + yeast, let it go to krausen then add to a 3L wort, this step up allows the yeast to attenuate properly and give a larger pitchable volume.
You only need to pitch larger volume starters for cold fermentations or high SG worts.
Cheers
Always aim for an SG of 1040 for your starters. That means 100g of dry malt extract per 1 L water. I usually make a 1L wort + yeast, let it go to krausen then add to a 3L wort, this step up allows the yeast to attenuate properly and give a larger pitchable volume.
You only need to pitch larger volume starters for cold fermentations or high SG worts.
Cheers
pint of lager
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Rules of liquid yeast work.
1. Use wort of sg 1.030 -1.040. for 1.040 use 100gms DME per litre. Aeration is important, you are aiming for healthy yeast growth, not beer production.
2. Be as aseptic as possible (as close to sterile as possible.) Take great care with very small amounts of yeast and wort transfer.
3. The smaller the quantity of yeast, the smaller the starter.
4. The older the yeast, the smaller the starter.
5. Once you have your small wort actively fementing, step up in scales of 10, for instance, 100ml is stepped up to 1,000 ml.
6. For ales you need an active starter of volume 5% of your wort. So if your batch size is 23 litres, you need a starter of 1.175 litres, most people aim for at least a litre. Lagers are slower to multiply and ferment, they need double, or 10% of your wort size. If making a stronger og brew, consider using fresh yeast slurry from a previous brew.
Aim to have your final step close to the volume needed.
7. Consider using a good quality yeast nutrient blend in your starters (not just plain diammonium phosphate, something that has lots of trace elements). Healthy parents have healthy children. Make sure you use the correct does, too much micronutrients can be harmful to your yeast.
8. Every time you work with yeast, sniff it and if possible, pour some into a glass and taste it. This way, you have an understanding as to whether the flavour/aroma is funky infected or funky hard working yeast.
1. Use wort of sg 1.030 -1.040. for 1.040 use 100gms DME per litre. Aeration is important, you are aiming for healthy yeast growth, not beer production.
2. Be as aseptic as possible (as close to sterile as possible.) Take great care with very small amounts of yeast and wort transfer.
3. The smaller the quantity of yeast, the smaller the starter.
4. The older the yeast, the smaller the starter.
5. Once you have your small wort actively fementing, step up in scales of 10, for instance, 100ml is stepped up to 1,000 ml.
6. For ales you need an active starter of volume 5% of your wort. So if your batch size is 23 litres, you need a starter of 1.175 litres, most people aim for at least a litre. Lagers are slower to multiply and ferment, they need double, or 10% of your wort size. If making a stronger og brew, consider using fresh yeast slurry from a previous brew.
Aim to have your final step close to the volume needed.
7. Consider using a good quality yeast nutrient blend in your starters (not just plain diammonium phosphate, something that has lots of trace elements). Healthy parents have healthy children. Make sure you use the correct does, too much micronutrients can be harmful to your yeast.
8. Every time you work with yeast, sniff it and if possible, pour some into a glass and taste it. This way, you have an understanding as to whether the flavour/aroma is funky infected or funky hard working yeast.
sah
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When stepping up I usually only double the volume of wort each time. This means I step up more often. Normally every 12 hours. Sometimes if I gauge that the yeast isn't active enough I leave it for say another 12 hours. I start in an erlenmeyer flask and finish up in a 2.2L PET soft drink bottle.
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
Rather than use an old yeast cake I wanted to step up the original yeast. So, all those Duvel brewers out there, what would be the final volume for a strong starter for this kind of beer? I'll go the 100g per litre for the initial starter and use the ratio of 10 for the next. Would three litres be sufficient? I use the 5 litre demijohns.
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Depends on the og of your brew.
As a Duvel clone you are probably aiming for around 1.060. This is borderline for the standard 5% starter rule.
I think the recommended rate is double for every extra 10 sg points above 1.050.
At that rate you need a very large starter which would affect your end result beer. This is why when brewing stronger beers, brewers aim for serial brewing, so that they can pitch some fresh yeast cake. That way they don't end up with too much waste starter wort in the strong beer. Fresh yeast cake is ideal for brewing with.
For a 1.060 brew, your yeast sediment from a 3 litre starter in the 5 litre demijohn should be fine. This is similar to what I brew with. After starting off from yeast on a petri dish, it is stepped up a few times to 4 litres, then the yeast slurry is pitched into 45 litres 1.050 sg lager.
As a Duvel clone you are probably aiming for around 1.060. This is borderline for the standard 5% starter rule.
I think the recommended rate is double for every extra 10 sg points above 1.050.
At that rate you need a very large starter which would affect your end result beer. This is why when brewing stronger beers, brewers aim for serial brewing, so that they can pitch some fresh yeast cake. That way they don't end up with too much waste starter wort in the strong beer. Fresh yeast cake is ideal for brewing with.
For a 1.060 brew, your yeast sediment from a 3 litre starter in the 5 litre demijohn should be fine. This is similar to what I brew with. After starting off from yeast on a petri dish, it is stepped up a few times to 4 litres, then the yeast slurry is pitched into 45 litres 1.050 sg lager.
Tell me if I am misinterpreting what you are saying here. From what I gather, you make the starter, get it up to 3 or 4 litres and because of the amount of liquid involved you would let the yeast settle out, drain the liquid off and then add the yeast slurry? Is this right?
johnno
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Last year when I made my Rocheforet clone. I made a litre starter then stepped it up to 6 litres.
I let it ferment out then when it was time to use it I poured the beer of the top out and just used the slurry.
Like I said when I did this, next time I will make a smaller beer then pitch the big beer onto the cake. Too much stuffing around for me.
cheers
johnno
I let it ferment out then when it was time to use it I poured the beer of the top out and just used the slurry.
Like I said when I did this, next time I will make a smaller beer then pitch the big beer onto the cake. Too much stuffing around for me.
cheers
johnno
Yeah, drain off the excess wort after the yeast has just settled out. That's what I do anyway on my normal starters and things work just fine. I'm avoiding putting a new brew on an old cake because of time constraints. That method involves bottling a batch AND putting a brew on. A brew for me takes a good 5 hours and I only start brewing when the kiddies go to bed, around 9pm. I'm knackered just from the brewing (and pissed 
h34r: ). I suppose I could bottle while the hot wort is cooling in the sink, though.
h34r: ). I suppose I could bottle while the hot wort is cooling in the sink, though.
Stuster
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Tintin, seems like you have the same constraints that I do.
I often bottle one night and keep some/all of the yeast cake in a sanitised jar in the fridge. If you use this yeast within a week or two, there's no need to make a starter. To work out how much slurry to use, Mr Malty's calculator is the way to go.
Alternatively, if you no chill, you can brew anytime and then put on the next batch straight after you have freed a fermenter and yeast cake.
I often bottle one night and keep some/all of the yeast cake in a sanitised jar in the fridge. If you use this yeast within a week or two, there's no need to make a starter. To work out how much slurry to use, Mr Malty's calculator is the way to go.
Alternatively, if you no chill, you can brew anytime and then put on the next batch straight after you have freed a fermenter and yeast cake.
Stuster, if I bottle and keep all the cake until the next night (in the fridge), you're saying I just need to take it (and give it a shake) a few hours prior to pitching to acclimatise? I think I might do that. Alas, Mr Malty's requires Flash, and I'm unable to install it (work computer! h34r: ). Are you able to throw a few ball park figures my way. That would be handy.
h34r: ). Are you able to throw a few ball park figures my way. That would be handy.pint of lager
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Yes, let the starter ferment out, flocculate, then pitch the slurry only. Or, for standard brews, just pitch the entire active starter.
Thanks for adding the link Stuster, I knew there was one kicking around.
Thanks for adding the link Stuster, I knew there was one kicking around.
Stuster
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Yep, that'll work, Tintin. You can just let it settle out if you want, pour off the clear liquid on top and pitch the thick slurry. Numbers - if you are doing something round the 1060 mark, you'll need about 125mls of slurry, half a cup.
In terms of letting it warm up, cj (of hopburst and hop monster fame) has been advocating cold pitching. For some reason, cold to warm doesn't seem to shock the yeast too much. I tried it on my last brew and I'm undecided. A split batch. One half with a 1.5L starter took less than 6 hours to start, the other half cold pitched with 100ml or so of thick slurry took nearly 18 hours. Not long enough to worry about for sure but I wasn't expecting it to take longer than the other half. Anyway, info on that method is here.
In terms of letting it warm up, cj (of hopburst and hop monster fame) has been advocating cold pitching. For some reason, cold to warm doesn't seem to shock the yeast too much. I tried it on my last brew and I'm undecided. A split batch. One half with a 1.5L starter took less than 6 hours to start, the other half cold pitched with 100ml or so of thick slurry took nearly 18 hours. Not long enough to worry about for sure but I wasn't expecting it to take longer than the other half. Anyway, info on that method is here.
No worries, thanks for the replies. You've convinced me. I'll get to work on a pale belgian (~5%), bottle it and keep the cake for a big brew the following night. That's the problem with kids...They're great but you definitely don't want them in the kitchen with vats of boiling wort. Lord knows I have enough problems.
