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nabs478

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Gday guys,

I have been brewing for about 2 years. I would regard myself as a fairly competent brewer and I feel I understand a lot of the stuff going on fairly well, which in part could be due to a background in chemistry. This problem I have, however, has me completely stumped!!

About 6 months ago, I brewed a batch of ESB and it turned out with an off flavour in it that was kind of bitter (not pleasingly bitter, like hops though) and reminded me of the smell in a barn yard where animals have slept (otherwise I could taste a reasonable beer trying to shine through the flavour that has become known among my friends as the barnyard).

Since then I have brewed about 15 batches with one successful witbier and one successful larger. Each time I have spent heaps of time and effort on cleaning and sterilizing and removing different steps of the process to try and work out which step is causing the infection. I was originally running an all grain system with a chilling circuit using counter flow heat exchangers with oxygen injection and a 200L stainless conical fermenter. I have got to the point now where I built a new kettle that holds about 50L (I run a system capable of making abount 160L in a batch), and piped 50L into it while it is boiling from my large kettle, then no-chilled it and transferred it into a plastic 60L fermenter that was thoroughly cleaned and then sterlised with a spray of metho/water mix then 2-3L of boiling water (I also boiled the tap). The barnyard taste was evident 24 hours after pitching the yeast very confusing.

Before I go on further I should describe some of the characteristics of the flavor I get. On about 3 or 4 brews, I tipped them before fermentation was complete because the taste was so strong. In others the flavour hasnt been so bad, in fact I served one that only had it mildly at a party after a couple of kegs of other stuff and it went down ok. I have noticed though in a couple of brews with varying degrees of the flavour that I didnt tip out for a while (up to 8 weeks on one occasion) that the flavor dropped off to some degree over time. One of these I am thinking is nearly drinkable at the moment, and seeing as I cant brew anything that tastes good, I am thinking of taking a keg of it to Meredith music festival in a couple of weeks. I also notice that the off flavor is also more noticeable if the sample is taken from the bottom of the fermenter near the yeast and other crap (sometimes including a little hop debris) than if the sample is taken from the top of the fermenter.

Today I attempted another witbier and had a bit of a revelation. During the boil, a couple of times I thought I could smell the taste I am talking about. I should add here that I have been doing my head in over this problem for a long time, and on one occasion I have thought I could taste it when a brewing friend said they couldnt taste anything, so I could have been mistaken when I smelled that smell. Then after I finished, I had a jug of wort that I tested the gravity from and tasted it. I am sure I could taste it in that sample, which was about 3 hours after it had been chilled.

Like other bitter flavours, it seems to be much more evident once the brew has fermented. I originally thought this was because it was an infection and it needed to actually do some fermenting to leave its flavour behind. Now I think it may be because all bitterness is just more evident when there is less sugar around to balance it. I am thinking now that this could be a problem not caused by a living microorganism, but rather some other crap that is getting into the beer that does not actually change much during fermentation, but just becomes more evident due to the removal of the sugar.

Given this though, I will need to describe my brewing system and cleaning steps. I will start with how I did it originally, then go through the different cleaning and process regimes I have tried.

I have a 3 tank system, HLT, Mash Tun (MT) and Kettle (K). The HLT is a stainless 44 gallon drum with 2x 4.8kW elements, temp control, sight guage and the exit has a ball valve and a solenoid valve in line. The MT is about 100L stainless tank with a false bottom, under which it is a conical shape. On its exit at the bottom of the cone there is a ball valve and a solenoid valve also. The K is basically the same as the HLT, but insulated a little better, has a different type of sight guage and has another exit in the middle on the bottom.

I heat up water in the HLT, transfer it to the MT through the exit in the bottom of th eHLT and into the bottom of the MT. As the water rises from the bottom in the MT, I scoop the grain in and wet it all up. I then leave it for 75mins will more water is heating in the HLT. I then circulate the wort for 15mins by gravity feeding it into a small esky which has level switches installed in it. The level switches drive a pump when it fills up (also shuts the solenoid valve if it gets full and does not empty soon enough) and pumps the water back to the top of th eMT. After 15mins, I start adding water to the MT and pumping the wort to the K (the MT also has a level switch which controls water in flow from the HLT). I then boil it for 60 or 90 mins depending on the beer, add hops, yeast nutrient, whirlfloc and sometimes some spices. During the boil I fill the fermenter I am going to use with some peroxytane (no rinse sanitiser) and pump it through the heat exchangers, oxygen injecting and back to the fermenter for about 15 mins. I let the boil sit to settle for 30mins, then I pump the wort through the cooling circuit into the fermenter (before the beer goes into the fermenter I tip out the peroxytane). Once the flow of hot wort has heated up the heat exchangers I would then turn the tap on for the counter flow to cool it down, and then turn on the oxygen once the flow was cold and it had cooled the liquid in the fermenter to below 30C (this sometimes meant I put 1o-15L through before I turned on the oxygen. All fluid transfer is done in silicon hose or stainless steel pipes with tri-clover clamps to connect them.

Cleaning up originally consisted of the following

- Cleaning out all the grain from the MT and rinsing it with cold water.
- Cleaning out all the hop crap out of the K and giving it a quick once over with a scourer and rinsing it. Also flushing the inlets/outlets and the sight guage
- Flushing the heat exchanger with mains pressure in both directions.
- Rinsing out the esky and all transfer lines with mains pressure.
- Emptying any left over water from the HLT
- Also before using most pieces foir the next brew I would rinse them again and soak them in fresh peroxytane of spray them with a metho/water mix.

I now realise that this is not a very comprehensive cleaning regime and I have done the following during the last 6 months to try to rectify the situation

- The stainless fermenter had some bad welds on in the inside, so before using it I ran a heat gun over the internal welds. I also later tried cleaning it using a spray ball and 50C C4 solution (which is about 2% caustic soda with surfactants and sequesters, and is designed for cleaning stainless food production equipment) and using heat on the welds. When this didnt work, I changed to 60L plastic fermenters.

- I tried pumping 50C C4 through the cooling circuit (cooling circuit comprises of the heat exchangers, pump and oxygen injection assembly) to dissolve any crap, which didnt help. Then I started soaking the circuit in Napisan for at least 24 hours (sometimes much longer like a week or more), then rinsing it again and then soaking it is Iodophor, which I diluted to about 1:100, which is ten times strong than the recommend until the next brew day. Before use I would give it a few flushes with mains pressure and once pumped 15L of boiling water through it, which didnt help. I have now started pumping hot wort through it for 5-10 mins during the boil and back into the kettle, then when I am ready to chill, pulling of the hose going back into the kettle and plugging it into the fermenter. Still had the same problem.

- I have changed the fitting on the oxygen bottle so that it is now an in-post off a corny keg, and sprayed heaps of metho into the reg to sterilize it. I then also boiled the oxygen injection stone, hose and push connect before screwing it into the assembly fora brew. Did not help!

- Pulled apart the 3-piece ball valves on the K and clean and sterilise them.

- As I have said earlier, I have tried boiling it in my K then transferring it to a new kettle (new, as in never used before, and built for this specific purpose) to chill in, then transferred into a fermenter without oxygen injection. I just poured it from a height into the fermenter to dissolve oxygen. I did that transfer in the kitchen which should be far enough away from my garage and any bacteria that has infected other brews. Still no good!

- Next I am thinking of not even using the big K or the esky, and just doing a 50L batch and putting it straight into the little kettle from the MT and then no-chill and into the fermenter.

I have not tried going to town on cleaning the system before the boil as I have ready in a brewing text that visually clean is enough for things that come into contact with the wort before the boil.

It has got to the point where I do not think I am going to brew anymore until I have either got some good advice or read something relevant that explains the problem I am having. I am throwing out huge amounts of beer and no longer have any ideas what could be causing it. I am planning to have a few of my beers tested for bacteria to find out definitively whether it is bacteria or not.

I will try to get some photos of my brewery up tomorrow arvo so people can see whatis going on with it.

I am interested in any suggestions, ideas or similar experiences from anybody that might help my situation!

Thanks

Pip
 
the barnyard

Barnyard (sweaty horse blanket) flavours are produced by Brettanomyces yeast. It's a desired flavour in lambic beers but not much good for anything else. It's notoriously hard to get rid of if it gets in your system.

Best thing to do would be to get a fresh wort kit (or standard kit) and see if your Brett takes hold then. If it does, it's in your fermenter(s) and you're better off just chucking them. If not, a full-on caustic run through your system followed by a phosphoric acid run (after rinsing).

Hopefully others will have more detailed help for you; I just skimmed over your post as I'm tired :)
 
1. Post shorter. Damn. I was very tempted to just reply with TLDR and leave it at that. I still haven't read the whole thing. I got lost.

2. I would recommend getting someone who is familiar with what off-tastes are attributed to what (via a brew club, brew shop, board member who lives nearby) and see what they think. Tastes and smells are difficult to describe in words. Chances are if the person is experienced enough they will say "ah, of course - it's <insert problem>."

3. (may have been answered already) Taste your water carefully. Taste your grains carefully. Taste the hops if you need to. I would suggest (at the risk of wasting yet another batch) making a 1 grain, 1 hop, neutral, plain beer and seeing if you still get it. ESB and wits have their own smells and tastes to compete with.

4. Try the 1 grain, 1 hop beer with filtered water.

5. ???

6. Profit.

That's alls I got. Good luck.
 
i dont have time to read that boy, just give me the jist of it..........
 
I did read the whole thing, but I think I've forgotten some of it already. Your sanitation sounds pretty good (although I may be confused about what happens post-K :rolleyes: ). If you think it may not be contamination, posting a recipe or two might really help. Were you recipes too bitter perhaps? Did you use only saison yeasts? :unsure: :lol:
 
I am saddenened to hear all that effort gone to waist.
Didn't you post a similar thread last year?

Since you are brewing such large quantities at the time I suggest you simplify your system to leave less variables.

"A full-on caustic run through your system followed by a phosphoric acid run (after rinsing)."
+1
Also rinse caustic with hot water sanitiser with cold water then a no rinse treatment or boiled sterile water in to the fermenter.

I sugget you brew an IPA or an APA.
The hops will protect you until you got your system sorted......
 
Obviously you have a big problem; this sort of thing can be a real bugger to try to pin it down.

If you are no-chilling and the cubes arent showing signs of the infection (i.e. swelling, smelling bad), I think you can rule out an infection in everything upstream of your fermenters.

Physically examine every part (inside the pipes and fittings) and especially inside the solenoid valves, some of these arent very helpful to brewers in that when they are open for flow or cleaning there are parts that dont get cleaned. When the valve closes they can dump contaminants into the system. This is one of the reasons food grade or sanitary fittings are so much more expensive than the more common industrial ones.

Look for corrosion of metal parts, you could depending on the materials you valves are made of be getting some wicked electrolysis (metal in beer can give some very strange flavours), or some lubricants or broken down plastic getting into your brew.

Do a water brew, just the water you would use in a brew with out any hops or malt, but all the same processes.
Taste look at and smell the water at each stage looking for any changes, might help pin down the source of a problem.
If all else fails send the water to a lab, might cost a couple of hundred bucks but it could get the right answer.

Exposing a Petri dish of agar media to the air in your brew room and seeing what grows might be interesting to.

Hope you find the problem soon, these things can be very frustrating, I had to moved house to get away from enthusiastic composters - not brew friendly at all is compost, didnt smell too good either.

MHB
 
Two possible causes come to mind: brettanomyces or contamination of your water (which you didn't describe).

To rule out or confirm brett, try doing a no chill batch. Putting 100C wort into a sanitised cube would effectively kill any brett so if the no chill batch still has the barnyard taste/smell, it could be water contamination. If that smell/taste goes away, it's brett.

Where do you get your water from? How is it stored? [Obvious question follows] Do you get your water from a well, and if so, is there any chance that your water supply is being contaminated by livestock manure? I'm not a water treatment expert, but I think that activated carbon filtration will get rid of that barnyard smell from water.
 
Really sorry to hear about your frustrating problems.

You mentioned that the flavour was there after only 24 hours, or perhaps even in the kettle? If that is the case, you can rule out Brett infections as these take quite a while to develop. In fact, I think its unlikely to be any infection given these timescales.

Your description of the flavour is difficult to pin down, so I would definitely echo the words of QuantumBrewer and visit/join a local brewing club with some samples. Its the best way to identify an off flavour!

The only thing I can think of that might be the cause is chlorinated water. Chlorine in water can react with hops to create a strong plasticky/band-aid/nappy aroma/flavour. The solution is to use either campden tablets or sodium metabisulfite to treat all your brewing water. One campden tablet should treat about 80 litres of water.

But get theself to a brew club and get some other opinions.

Berp.
 
Thanks for the info guys and sorry for the long post, but I think it was necessary otherwis eI would have had to slowly put in all this info over the next few days.

I have also tried no-chilling in the plastic fermenters. I have done two loads of 50L, from the same batch. They bost had the same problem. I pumped it into them at 95C.

I use a two stage water filter with a sediment cartridge foloowed by activated carbon. IT said on the package if it is not used for 2 weeks then run 10L of water thtough it and throw it out before using the run off, which I always do.

My solenoid valves are stainless steel but I agree they could harbour some crap - but after I read soem stuff in a brewing handbook, I decided that this was not a problem as it was preboil. Can I get some opinions on that?

I have tasted mash run off and it tastes fine.

I am sure there is a heaps of bacteria hanging around in my garage, but the way I do things should stop it getting into the beer. I always use presantised, closed sytems for fluid transfer, and usually pitch the yeast inside the house away from the garage. I have considered pulling everything out and spraying the place with a sanitiser, but on one side of the garage there is just too much shit which cant get wet to make it practicle. I would dothe rest of the garage though.

I will try a fresh wort kit in a fermenter, and also try a water brew and taste it at the different stage...both great ideas!! Thanks.

I have physically examined everything that I can, which is everythign bu the inside of the heat exchangers. It all looks fine.

The flavour is definately not caused by the recipes being too bitter. I have had the rpoblem using Wyeast 1968, Fermentis US-05, Fermentis Saflager and I think now using Wyeast 3944. I have also used a wide range of malts and hops, non of which appear in every beer. Torrefied wheat has been used in almost all of them, but have tasted it and it tastes fine. I have also used TW from two different sacks and stiull had the same problem.

I live in a suburb call Bellfield, in Melbourne, which is just between Preston, Ivanhoe and Heidelberg. Is there any master off-flavour nidentifying personell in my area that want to taste some gross beer? I could throw in some decent beer, but all I got left in the decent beer category is Stout and Witbier!
 
Have you tried it with a new cartridge water filter? Have you tried it without the water filter? Those things are designed to have water going thought them daily otherwise they can get a bunch of yukky stuff built up in them.

Cheers,

JJ
 
Buy a new fermenter and try that.
Your not leaving the wort on the yeast cake way to long after fermentation are you? Yeast bite is yucky.

Batz
 
I think Tony had a similar problem. From memory his tap draining the kettle was full of crap. He also was assuming it would be sterile as this was from the boil, but hot wort running over crusty husks and trub in the taps were causing off flavours. It sounds like your brew rig is homemade and fairly automated. I would pull all your solenoids off (leave them on the bench), clean your valves, and try a brew by turning taps manually. All ball valves should be left open once you have finished brewing, this way no wort can get trapped in the centers. Give your chiller a good soak in cleaner and flush from the opposite direction that the wort normally travels through.
 
Another possibility is the pump sucking in air and giving you some hot side aeration? Long shot I know, but we are desperate!

I can suggest that you send a sample off to a lab to find out exactly what the problem is. We would send off samples taken from a filter/kegging run for quality control while I was brewing for a crust... not that there was ever a problem, just part of the recipe! I can't recall the exact place as a courier picked up the samples, somewhere in Rydalmere NSW? PM me if you want me to chase up the details. I'm sure there is someone closer to you.

The only way to isolate the issue is to take things out of the equation. Fresh wort kit into a new fermenter is a good start. If it is ok, start adding things from your old set up.

Use dry yeast without starter until issue is found.

Do you use a fermentation fridge/keg fridge? Could have some nasties in there that gets its way into your beer? Easy to suck in atmosphere as it is chilling.
 
I feel for you bloke !! I haven't lost a batch (yet :rolleyes: ) but I would find this ordeal excruciating ! Well done in presenting so much information to help identify the issues.
You stated that you feel you can detect the contamination pre ferment so I would be examining the pre boil stage. Whilst it is correct that bacterial based issues are mostly dealt with with the boil, if there is some festering organic matter somewhere than it won't be doing you any favors.
Like Boston and MHB suggested the solenoid valves are a likely culprit. In a food grade environment they are pretty much designated to water due to the cavities in the mechanism that can harbor nasty stuff. Definately pull these out and break them down for close visual and aromatic inspection. It's seems that they are pretty integral to your brewing process so you may have to consider replacing them with some automated ball valves if they do prove to be the source of your problems.
Keep reporting back on how you progress and good luck !!
Cheers
Doug
 
Today I attempted another witbier and had a bit of a revelation. During the boil, a couple of times I thought I could smell the taste I am talking about.

G'day Pip this could be a longshot but this line sort of had me thinking. Do you boil with your lid on or partially on at all? I'm thinking if you're tasting it and smelling it during the boil the only relationship I can draw is DMS. To me the smell and most definitely the flavour remind me of overboiled broccoli.

Warren -
 
G'day Pip this could be a longshot but this line sort of had me thinking. Do you boil with your lid on or partially on at all? I'm thinking if you're tasting it and smelling it during the boil the only relationship I can draw is DMS. To me the smell and most definitely the flavour remind me of overboiled broccoli.

Warren -

Hmmm, he said he made a good lager out of all of that though... I would have thought that the DMS issue would have been more prominant??
 
Hmmm, he said he made a good lager out of all of that though... I would have thought that the DMS issue would have been more prominant??

Only offering one remote answer BC. Not trying to provoke any DMS wars. :)

The fact he could smell the same thing he tasted during the boil just led me to conclude it could be just one option.

Missed the lager bit through a very protracted post by pip... My bad.

Warren -
 
Pip: Sanitizing also means enviroment included. If you are brewing in a shed or an old structure check out whats above your equipment such as the inside roof structure you would be amazed at what accumulates there over the years. Just another two bits worth.

Cheers
 
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