BIAB Weissbier (more banana, light colour)

[Adr_0]

Warra and I aren't disagreeing on anything, in fact neither of us is recommending any Carra Malt, that would be included to make an Amber or Dunkel Wheat.
There are two distinct elements to brewing, the science of and the art of brewing, to me the science underpins the art, a bit like architecture, you can draw anything, but the rules of engineering tells you whether or not it will stand up.
Clearly you don't have a lot of experience with hefeweizen, I would strongly recommend you start with something simple like a 50/50 wheat pilsner (spend the extra and go German, it will taste better).
If your supplier cant give you what you need - try someone else. If you have a good local HBS support them, but if you need things they don't stock, get what you need I use Brewman, but depending on where you are there are a few good choices.

If I wanted to do a Dunkel Weiss, I would go to CarraWheat in preference to CaraMunich
Add the dextrose to the kettle near the end of the boil, about 5% of the total weight of extract, for a 25L batch (end of boil) that comes to around 150g.
The mash regime is a very specialised one, it isn't necessary if you are adding dextrose, it is designed to create Glucose (dextrose) which doesn't normally happen in a mash as the Maltase is killed off before the maltose is made.
There are way too many different types of wheat beer and ways of making them for us to cover here, if you want to know way too much try this Brewing Bavarian Weissbier  –  all you ever wanted to know

Starting out keep it simple and enjoy the beer.
Mark

Hi Mark,

This is a great link - very good reading and goes well with Brewing With Wheat (Stan H) and German Wheat Beer (Eric W) as great wheat beer resources.

I'm curious about two things:
- 45°C is flagged as where maltase is most active but this is also where ferulic acid is produced. Both enzymes seem to be most active at pH 5.8-6.2. Is the intention of the article that 4VG/clove is also increased or does isoamyl acetate increase much further? Stan H's table on page 85 indicates the beer becomes less estric the longer the mash rests at this temperature.
- Since we're not Reinheitsgebot-bound, it's suggested in the article to add malt extract to the mash as availble maltose for the 45°C maltase rest, which breaks it down into glucose. Couldn't dextrose just be added at the end of the boil?

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it seems to suggest maltase is active in the high 30's with overlap around 39-41°C, not 45°C:

 

[Hez]

Yesterday I finally brew the wheat beer. I tried to be as focused as possible but I made the same mistake again...
I used the manual blender measurement jug to fill the pot, 1l at a time... when I was around 14l, I measured with my ruler to check if I was going ok. The first time I brewed I made a "measurement scale", I mean, I measured the height of the water and calculated that up from 5l, 1l = 0.7cm. Well, at that point my "scale" and the water I added with the blender jug didn't match, and what did the moron (moron=me) do? trust the numbers instead of the reality... so I kept on trusting the numbers for the mash (I did the three step mash), then I did the same for the boiling part and all... everything good. But 15' before the end of the boil I measured again and the numbers didn't match! (of course) So I decided to add 1.5l of boiling water.
I took my measurement again, and it was spot on. So I chilled, transfered it to the fermenter and took a sample for the hydrometer but then I realized from the fermenter measurements I was 1.5l down!!! What a nightmare! I used the hydrometer and the OG was... 1.065 so I did the typical thing everyone say not to do: I added 1.5l of cold water directly from the tap to the blender jug and to the fermenter!
I was worried about infections so I put 1 cap/lid of the prepared sanitizier (1 cap/lid of sanitizer per 500ml of water gives you a little more of 500ml of prepared sanitizer, I used one water bottle cap/lid of the prepared sanitizer not from the "concentrated" sanitizer) into the tap water before adding it to the fermenter. I took another measurement with the hydrometer and I got a final OG of 1050.5
The target OG was 1049 but I didn't want to continue with this game anymore... I guess from 1049 to 1050.5 is not going to be much difference, maybe I should have added 0.5l more but... bah..

Next time I will take my time, I will measure exactly the water and the pot. This can't happen again! What a shame!

This morning I had some good 5cm of foamy bubbles over the beer inside the fermenter, so I didn't kill the yeast with the extra sanitizer... let's see how it goes. I guess it will be ready to bottle this sunday. I'll keep you updated.

What do you think? Will I have a good beer or diarrhoea? :S

 

[homebrewnewb]

that last line killed me, killed me i tell you!

 

[Hez]

that last line killed me, killed me i tell you!

JAJAJA
HAHAHA

 

[MHB]

Adr_0
I would be adding glucose to the kettle, the whole point of the rather complex mash regime is to make Glucose within the Reinheitsgebot
I think the thing to remember is that the mashing is done to provide the yeast with food, Banana flavour requires Glucose as a precursor, no glucose no banana, the phenolic flavours/aromas are produced on a different pathway, but still by the yeast during primary fermentation.
Temperature, pitch rate and aeration have a lot more impact on the amount of phenolic produced.
Mark

 

[Hez]

Adr_0
I would be adding glucose to the kettle, the whole point of the rather complex mash regime is to make Glucose within the Reinheitsgebot
I think the thing to remember is that the mashing is done to provide the yeast with food, Banana flavour requires Glucose as a precursor, no glucose no banana, the phenolic flavours/aromas are produced on a different pathway, but still by the yeast during primary fermentation.
Temperature, pitch rate and aeration have a lot more impact on the amount of phenolic produced.
Mark

glucose or dextrose?
I added the 50g of dextrose into the boil (10', as recommended) will I have banana?

 

[MHB]

Some, I would have used a bit more (5-10% of extract), remember there is some naturally occurring Glucose in the grain, so adding some will help, but up to a point more is better.
Mark

 

[Adr_0]

glucose or dextrose?
I added the 50g of dextrose into the boil (10', as recommended) will I have banana?

Dextrose = powdered form of glucose. So basically the same thing.

You probably need in the order of a few hundred grams to make an appreciable difference.

 

[Adr_0]

Adr_0
I would be adding glucose to the kettle, the whole point of the rather complex mash regime is to make Glucose within the Reinheitsgebot
I think the thing to remember is that the mashing is done to provide the yeast with food, Banana flavour requires Glucose as a precursor, no glucose no banana, the phenolic flavours/aromas are produced on a different pathway, but still by the yeast during primary fermentation.
Temperature, pitch rate and aeration have a lot more impact on the amount of phenolic produced.
Mark

That reflects my experience. I regularly use 3638 - I just like to be different, and I like Paulaner - and so I'm familiar with the phenolic profile. Last time I used a 20min rest at 44°C but didn't really notice a massive amount more clove/vanilla.

 

[Hez]

Dextrose = powdered form of glucose. So basically the same thing.

You probably need in the order of a few hundred grams to make an appreciable difference.

I did the calculation of the quantity of dextrose from some recommendations I found in this and other posts but I don't have a proper understanding of it... How do you know what is a good amount? Trial and error?

 

[Adr_0]

I did the calculation of the quantity of dextrose from some recommendations I found in this and other posts but I don't have a proper understanding of it... How do you know what is a good amount? Trial and error?

Don't ask me, I only said 'a few hundred grams' because 50g in a 20-25L batch is around 1% (whether we're talking grain weight or extract weight).

Some, I would have used a bit more (5-10% of extract), remember there is some naturally occurring Glucose in the grain, so adding some will help, but up to a point more is better.
Mark

This gentleman says 5-10% and you and I have every reason to trust his knowledge.

 

[Hez]

Don't ask me, I only said 'a few hundred grams' because 50g in a 20-25L batch is around 1% (whether we're talking grain weight or extract weight).


This gentleman says 5-10% and you and I have every reason to trust his knowledge.

I just saw his post, sorry MHB, I missed it! jejeje I take seriously your comments, trust me.

My final batch size is 10L, I'm not very ambitious or have room to spare in my tiny appartment... jejeje but how do you calculate that % ? what do you mean by extract weight? I do BIAB, all grain with a terrible efficiency (65-70%) so for these 10L I used 2600g of grain so:
5% of 2600 = 130g
10% of 2600 = 260g
I should have added at least 3 times more? But... if I add that amount of sugar, I would change my OG and thus the recipe:
more sugar -> more OG -> less grain = same OG
more sugar -> more OG -> more water = same OG but less IBU -> more water and hops!

How do you calculate the impact from dextrose into the OG?

The thing is... you can modify the OG at the end of the process (before fermenting) by adding sugar/dextrose/dme/extract/whatever but you can't add hops for bittering after the boil, so if you add more water (than the final amount calculated), you're pretty much screwed

I've seen one guy who did the test of dissolving dextrose in water and measuring with the hydrometer and he got:
28,3495g dextrose in 0.1L water (18ºF) -> Gravity: 1.037

So...

195g (7.5% of 2600g) / 10L = 19.5g/L
28,3495g * 10dL = 283.495g/L

37 * 19.5 / 283.495 = 2.545

If you add the 7.5% of your grain weight of dextrose you would be raising your OG 2.545 points, isn't it? That'd mean a good reduction in grain or increase of water (for that I'd use a proper homebrewing calculator...). Maybe that's why my OG ended up a little on the upper side... I didn't take the dextrose into account.

back to the calculator... :S

 

[Adr_0]

I just saw his post, sorry MHB, I missed it! jejeje I take seriously your comments, trust me.

My final batch size is 10L, I'm not very ambitious or have room to spare in my tiny appartment... jejeje but how do you calculate that % ? what do you mean by extract weight? I do BIAB, all grain with a terrible efficiency (65-70%) so for these 10L I used 2600g of grain so:
5% of 2600 = 130g
10% of 2600 = 260g
I should have added at least 3 times more? But... if I add that amount of sugar, I would change my OG and thus the recipe:
more sugar -> more OG -> less grain = same OG
more sugar -> more OG -> more water = same OG but less IBU -> more water and hops!

How do you calculate the impact from dextrose into the OG?

The thing is... you can modify the OG at the end of the process (before fermenting) by adding sugar/dextrose/dme/extract/whatever but you can't add hops for bittering after the boil, so if you add more water (than the final amount calculated), you're pretty much screwed

I've seen one guy who did the test of dissolving dextrose in water and measuring with the hydrometer and he got:
28,3495g dextrose in 0.1L water (18ºF) -> Gravity: 1.037

So...

195g (7.5% of 2600g) / 10L = 19.5g/L
28,3495g * 10dL = 283.495g/L

37 * 19.5 / 283.495 = 2.545

If you add the 7.5% of your grain weight of dextrose you would be raising your OG 2.545 points, isn't it? That'd mean a good reduction in grain or increase of water (for that I'd use a proper homebrewing calculator...). Maybe that's why my OG ended up a little on the upper side... I didn't take the dextrose into account.

back to the calculator... :S

Ah, my apologies - you're on the money.

2600g is your grain weight
Generally you can expect 75-78% extract - i.e. sugar - from pils/wheat malt which puts you around 2000g if you got 100% brewhouse efficiency, and about 1400g of extract given you have 70% efficiency.

So 50g / 1400g is about 3-4% which is higher than I thought. Certainly better than nothing and won't have an impact on flavour or body at those amounts.

I haven't measured dextrose in water but it should be about 1.044 (44 points per pound per gallon) as I think it's only about 97/98% glucose (and the rest is water). 1.037 is more like a base malt and seems very low.

 

[Adr_0]

I believe Mark's numbers of 5-10% come from the following:

- recommendation to substitute 20% of expected extract with light malt extract rather than grain
- the maltase rest seems to only result in about 25-35% of the light dry extract weight being converted to glucose
- instead of substituting light malt extract, 20% x 25-35% is 5-7% of total extract substituted as dextrose

It's also probably experience talking. Getting more than 10% will affect body which means all the hard work you did in the mash is eroded somewhat.

 

[Hez]

Thanks! I think I understand it now. So for next time I would add up to 5% dextrose and re-calculate the grain for the desired OG. I guess this time I will have a little more alcoholic and not-bitter-enough beer than expected. could have been worse! jeje let's see if it tastes like banana, that was the original intention!

3 weeks! this is the worst part...

 

[Adr_0]

Thanks! I think I understand it now. So for next time I would add up to 5% dextrose and re-calculate the grain for the desired OG. I guess this time I will have a little more alcoholic and not-bitter-enough beer than expected. could have been worse! jeje let's see if it tastes like banana, that was the original intention!

3 weeks! this is the worst part...

Why will it be less bitter?

 

[Hez]

Why will it be less bitter?

Same water, same hops, more OG (due to the dextrose that wasn't accounted in the original recipe) = less IBU

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/

 

[MHB]

I believe Mark's numbers of 5-10% come from the following:

- recommendation to substitute 20% of expected extract with light malt extract rather than grain
- the maltase rest seems to only result in about 25-35% of the light dry extract weight being converted to glucose
- instead of substituting light malt extract, 20% x 25-35% is 5-7% of total extract substituted as dextrose

It's also probably experience talking. Getting more than 10% will affect body which means all the hard work you did in the mash is eroded somewhat.

Its a bit of a chicken and egg answer, I based my 5-10% suggestion on the original research papers, I think the guys who made the light malt proposal did the same thing so we all end up in the same place just got there from opposite directions.
The big advantage of using glucose is you can just add it to an isothermal mashed wort, no need for step mashes unless you are setup to do them.
Mark

 

[Adr_0]

Same water, same hops, more OG (due to the dextrose that wasn't accounted in the original recipe) = less IBU

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/

Yeah that's fine - it will have less IBUs but - eg going from 14 to 13 - but this is not a bad thing. I doubt that you'll perceive it.

Since you added the dextrose with 10min left it should have minimal impact on IBU anyway - maybe half an IBU.

All in all, zero impact.

 

[Hez]

Two days into the fermenter and it's bubbling like a rabid dog! jejeje
I have a 15L carboy-style fermenter with a regular airlock with just over 10L of beer and the bubbles are almost reaching the lid. Those little yeasties are devouring the sugar like crazy. They will finish eating all in 4 or 5 days in total... anyway I'll wait until saturday to take the first hydrometer measurement and I guess on sunday (1 week after brew day) I'll get the same reading.

I'm still thinking about the carbonation though. This kind of beer should be carbonated from 3.6 to 4.5vol (according to all the links posted here), but I've read the regular "long neck bottles" are only safe until 3.4vol. Most of the people have told me not to waste time, energy and take risks on that and carbonate with the measure-priming-spoon as usual, but I want to experiment and give it a go, I want them to have a little extra... however I want to be safe, I don't want to spoil my beer and the hours doing it, so what do you think? should I try 3vol? 3.2? 3.4?

For instance:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Amount Being Packaged: 0.33L
Temperature of Beer: 20º

Volumes of CO2: 3.2
CO2 in Beer: 0.86v
Table Sugar: 3.1g
Dextrose / Corn Sugar: 3.4g
DME: 4.5g

I'm using dextrose instead of table sugar this time because someone told me it's better for obtaining the banana flavour.

The bottles I have are exactly identical:
- 4 pines (very very difficult to remove the labels, damm glue)
- Lord Nelson (very easy to remove the labels)
- Feral (difficult to remove the labels, damm glue)
- Kosciuszko (difficult to remove the labels, damm glue)

I have enough of them for having 2 batches at the same time, I'm leaving australia relatively soon so I don't want to collect more... I've also read recomendations of bottles to use for this, but as I just said, I don't want to collect more.