BIAB Saison

[Hez]

Hi! After a lot of reading and studying I made up this recipe for a Belgian-saison-style beer and I have a million questions, as usual.
Light colour, dry and a little hoppy. Mostly pilsner with a little bit of caramunich for colour and flavour. East Kent hops ("floral, lavender, spice, honey, earth, lemon, orange, grapefruit and thyme overtones", I already have them) up to ~30IBU for compensating the high gravity: 2/3 of the total IBUs at 60', the rest at 15' and some more for aroma after boil. Corn sugar for a drier beer. I left the spices alone in favour of the 0' hop addition, I'll use them next time if I feel I've got "bland" beer.

About the water chemistry (I'm starting to look into it), most people recommend a moderate boost in SO4 to enhance bitterness so I added some gypsum for getting 145ppm.
I've also read that Mg helps yeast with simple sugars but my water already has 23ppm of Mg and the recommended maximum is 30ppm... I guess it doesn't need more. I haven't had fermentation problems so far.

People recommend going to PH 5.2 (mash, room temp.) with saisons, but the general recomendation for all beers is to keep it between 5.4 and 5.6 so just in case, I adjusted it to 5.4 (I bought a 250ml lactic acid bottle 88% from a hombrew supply) what do you think?

About the Carbonate, although the water they have in Wallonnne has a lot of it, as @manticle told me, there's no point on trying to replicate historic water profiles... Do you think is it worth it to add carbonate and compensate it with more acid and salts?

About the gas/carbonation... you don't think it will need extra yeast for carbonation, do you!?

I plan to brew this one on 2017/11/18 if I can. I live in Mosman, NSW, so I expect an ambient temperature of 20-23º average. Probably it's still a little low but according to Steve Fletty (won Best of Show at the 2012 Minnesota State Fair) "(WLP565) yeast seem to perform as well at normal 20º than at 29º".
The alternative would be to brew another wheat beer now (witbier) and wait for january/february for this one... what do you think?

Thanks in advance for your help.

VIDEOS:
Jef Van Den Steen:
I wish I had had this guy as a professor!
Saison Dupont video:


ARTICLES:
Saison: https://byo.com/mead/item/1341-saison
Saison for All Seasons: https://byo.com/cider/item/2822-saison-a-beer-for-all-seasons
Saison: Style Profile: https://byo.com/bock/item/1343-saison-style-profile
Saison Beer – Belgian Farmhouse Ale Recipes: http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/10/08/saison-beer-belgian-farmhouse-ale-recipes/
On the Yeast: Guide to Bottle Conditioning: https://byo.com/food-recipes/item/1207-on-the-yeast-guide-to-bottle-conditioning
Brewing with Sugar: https://byo.com/malt/item/327-brewing-with-sugar
Sweetness: Brewing Sugars & How To Use Them: https://byo.com/bock/item/1441-sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them
Using Brewing Sugars: Tips from the Pros: https://byo.com/yeast/item/1552-using-brewing-sugars-tips-from-the-pros
East Kent Goldings: https://ychhops.com/varieties/east-kent-golding
Saison Dupont Clone: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/438817/saison-dupont-clone


BIAB PREMIÈRE SAISON RECIPE
(10L batch)

GRAIN:
2750g 87.30% Pilsner
120g 3.80% CaraMunich
280g 8.88% Corn Sugar
----------------------
2870g TOTAL grain
+280g dextrose = 3150g

SRM 5.55 - EBC 10.94
Efficiency 70%
Preboil OG 1035 (without sugar) - 1062OG - 1014FG - ABV 6.25%
P.S. These data are from the calculator, I expect to have lower FG... 1.009? 1.007?

HOPS:
60' 16g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA -> 18.69IBU
15' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA -> 9.86IBU
1' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA -> 0.86IBU (steep 30' @80ºC before chilling)
TOTAL IBU 29.40

YEAST:
White Labs WLP565 (Belgian Saison Ale) Pitch @22º

WATER PLAN:
Batch: 10L
Grain absorption: 0.37L/kg
Boil-off rate: 4.1l/hour
Trub: 2L
Kettle size: 25L

CALCULATED ( http://www.biabcalculator.com/ ):
- TOTAL WATER NEEDED 19.23L
- STRIKE WATER TEMP 64ºC
- TOTAL MASH VOLUME 21.14L
- PREBOIL WORT 18.15L
- POSTBOIL WORT 12L


WATER ADJUSTMENTS:
http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Starting water profile:
Ca+2 14.35 mg/L
Mg+2 22.50 mg/L
Na+ 15.65 mg/L
Cl- 30.25 mg/L
SO4-2 8.10 mg/L
HCO3- 41.5 mg/L

12.23L Mash Vol.
7.00L Sparge Vol.

2750g Base 2Row
120g 34L Crystal Malt (caramunich)

Adjust Mash pH DOWN:

2ml Lactic Acid 88% (20 drops)

Mash:
3g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4
13 drops Lactic Acid 88%

Sparge:
1.7g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4
7 drops Lactic Acid 88%

Ca: 70 <- Palmer's recommended range 50-150
Mg: 23 <- Palmer's recommended range 10-30
Na: 16 <- Palmer's recommended range 0-150
Cl: 30 <- Palmer's recommended range 0-250
SO4: 145 <- Palmer's recommended range 50-350
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.21 <- Below .77, May enhance bitterness

Estimated pH (room temp): 5.42 <- Palmer's recommended range 5.4-5.6

MASH:
30' 62°C hydration and beta-amylase rest <- 12.23L (TOTAL WATER 19.23L - SPARGE 7L)
- 3g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4
- 13 drops Lactic Acid 88%
- 2750g Pilsner
- 120g CaraMunich

50' 66°C alpha-amylase rest

10' 76ºC mash out

Sparge 76ºC <- 7L
- 1.7g Gypsum/Calcium Sulphate/CaSO4
- 7 drops Lactic Acid 88%

BOIL:
Check:
- Preboil wort 18.15L
- PH (room temp): 5.42
- Preboil OG 1035

60' 16g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA

20' 280g Corn Sugar

15' Insert chiller
15' 1/2 tablet Deltafloc
15' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA

0' 17g East Kent Goldings 5.1%AA (steep 30' @80ºC before chilling)

FERMENT:
Check:
- OG 1062
- Postboil wort 12L

Aerate thoroughly

White Labs WLP565 (Belgian Saison Ale) Pitch @22º

Ferment 24º-29º (until totally finished, it might be up to 3 weeks!)


CARBONATION:
Check:
- carbonation is fully over! FG <= 1.009

3.0 CO2 vol. -> 2.9g Table sugar per 33cl bottle.
Bottle condition at least 3 weeks and fridge at least 24h.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Is this a question or a statement?

My biggest 2 tips for Saison, which isn't nearly as considered as your research are 1. Wy3724 (if you get impatient, have a pack of dried Saison yeast ready to finish up) and 2. A minor souring, say in my case turn off the urn overnight and leave until the next afternoon.

 

[Phoney]

Using a Saison yeast is probably the most important factor when brewing a saison.

I've never seen sugar in a saison recipe either, let alone 18% of the grain bill

 

[Hez]

Is this a question or a statement?

My biggest 2 tips for Saison, which isn't nearly as considered as your research are 1. Wy3724 (if you get impatient, have a pack of dried Saison yeast ready to finish up) and 2. A minor souring, say in my case turn off the urn overnight and leave until the next afternoon.

Well, there's plenty of questions in the post...
What do you think of the recipe? Do I use spices or do you think the 0' hop addition is a good idea? Both? What do you think of the salts? More gypsum? Do I add epsom salts? Do I add carbonates? Do I lower the ph to 5.2 or is it 5.4 ok? Will I need extra yeast for carbonating (I bottle)?
Do you mean start with the Belgian yeast for saison and add another pack of dry yeast after one week? Do You think ambient temperature in Sydney will be hot enough for this yeast or should I wait one more month?


What do you mean by "a minor souring, turn off the urn" ?
Sorry , as you might have guessed I'm not an english speaker and I still don't know the brewing slang... :S

A million questions!!!

 

[Hez]

Using a Saison yeast is probably the most important factor when brewing a saison.

I've never seen sugar in a saison recipe either, let alone 18% of the grain bill

Sorry it was a typo, I intend to use:
White Labs WLP565 (Belgian Saison Ale)
I've corrected the original post
About the sugar, I've seen it in several saison beers, according to jef van den steen, it helps drying the beer. And it's not 18%, just 8.8%! :S
But I can always modify the recipe for removing it...

 

[Phoney]

Fair enough. It does dry the beer, but saison yeasts tend to finish up very, very low so you will end up with a dry beer regardless. Your 1.062 OG may well finish at 1.005 - thats 7.5%ABV.

Sorry, I thought I read: 280g 8.88% Corn Sugar +280g dextrose

Dextrose is a type of sugar.

 

[Hez]

Fair enough. It does dry the beer, but saison yeasts tend to finish up very, very low so you will end up with a dry beer regardless.

Sorry, I thought I read: 280g 8.88% Corn Sugar +280g dextrose

Dextrose is sugar.

Dextrose = corn sugar.
In any case , what I have is dextrose.
So no sugar at all, easy, I just have to add more pilsner and recalculate a few things
Thank you.

 

[luggy]

For me this style is all about the yeast, you've got a pretty good recipe there I'd dial back the sugar a bit but. Belgian saison can handle higher temps as well don't be afraid to let the temp get into the high 20's

 

[Hez]

For me this style is all about the yeast, you've got a pretty good recipe there I'd dial back the sugar a bit but. Belgian saison can handle higher temps as well don't be afraid to let the temp get into the high 20's

So.. 5% ? More? Less? Nothing ?
Thanks!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I brewed my last saison on soft water, no additions and yeah, it's all about the yeast.

I played with water and every dried Saison yeast on the market and nothing worked until I got the right yeast.

As for the urn off slightly sour, it's sort of a kettle sour but stops short. After mashing in at night, I let it cool to room temp, leave overnight until next afternoon, boil, hop and finish. It's not a kettle sour but seems to give it that extra bit of tart kick but more subtle.

 

[manticle]

For me saison is pretty simple.

Mostly pils
Some wheat malt 25% or less
Mash low (63 max)
Noble hop, preference for hallertauer mittelfruh , can be combined with styrian goldings or used alone. IBUs in the 25-40 range, some gentle late hopping and even dry hopping can work (styrians work well dry, don't go stupid).

Saison yeast is a must -3711 french from wyeast is a favourite. Start a bit low (maybe 20), after two days, let nature take its course. 27-28 is fine.

Alternatively, 3724 belgian - again 2 days low but this yeast likes it mega hot and may stall under 30. Put a fire in its belly.

No sugar.
No spice.
No crystal.
No carbonate.
No souring

Soft water, Ph to 5.2-5.4 at room temp with acid and calcium salt: cal chloride for malt to mash and boil, hint of gypsum to boil if you want, acid to sparge if sparging.

Simple beer needs attention and a judicious hand.

 

[contrarian]

Have to agree with the above. It’s a simple for seasonal workers. Mine tend to be mainly pils with some wheat and acidulated malt to drop pH if necessary.

It’s all about the yeast and if you treat that right the rest will take care of itself. I love styrian goldings and normally just have additions at 60 and 15 to max 25 IBU.

You just want enough to have balanced bitterness and subtle flavour to play with the yeast.

Mash low, ferment hot with a good yeast and try a few to find what you like. Some are smoother and funkier, others are more tart. It’s all about finding what you like.

It’s a simple beer for the seasonal workers, don’t overthink it any more than you already have!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Repeat what the guys above said (thankfully I'm sober and on a keyboard, not a device).

Mainly Pils, I use a tiny bit of cara-something and about 30% wheat malt. Whatever noble (or british) hop I have on hand.

Good yeast running very hot. Easy in Qld.

No water adjustments.

As stated above a tiny pseudo-kettle sour made it better, but realistically between that and the finishing with Danstar/Lallemand Belle Saison was simply to get the farmhouse character without spending the time waiting for it.

 

[Hez]

So... 80% pils, 20%wheat, no sugar, no crystal/caramel. What about some (~5%) munich or vienna non-cara?
The thing is, this weekend I had a saison on tap in a pub in surry hills and it tasted very very similar to my german wheat beer (50% pilsner and 50% wheat, more banana) :S So much I went back to the bar to check the tap to see if it was a saison or some kind of wheat beer! That's why I didn't want to use wheat on this one...

About the mash, do you think this is alright?
40' 62°C hydration and beta-amylase rest
40' 66°C alpha-amylase rest
10'' 76ºC mash out

My homebrew supplier only has WLP565, it looks like a very specific (and expensive) belgian saison yeast... I've read some people say it's very good and other people make a mix of this one + other dry yeasts I don't know.
I overcome my lack of experience and yeast knowledge by buying expensive yeast and doubling the amount of it I need. I do 10L batches and I use a fresh new whole package of 12$ yeast (intended for 20L) everytime. One step at a time... at some point I will start to sutdy the yeast, right now I'm still starting to look into the water chemistry...

About the hops, I already bought the East Kent Goldings because every Saison Dupont clone recipe I've run into calls for it! :S
I also have a very low alpha tettnanger (1.8%!!) I was saving for making another wheat beer (I have just enough for 1 batch), do you think it would be a good idea to use the tettnanger instead of the east kent goldings for the last addition?

...
Soft water, Ph to 5.2-5.4 at room temp with acid and calcium salt: cal chloride for malt to mash and boil, hint of gypsum to boil if you want, acid to sparge if sparging.
...

So you recommend to go to a balanced CL/SO4 proportion but add only the chloride to the mash and the gypsum later into the boil, is that it?
ah! and add all the acid into the sparge water instead of the proportional part to both the initial water and the sparge water, isn't it?

Thanks a lot to everyone!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

If you're getting the banana, it'll be yeast-derived, not the wheat. Like you said, German Wheat has the classic banana taste and that's derived from the yeast. Not sure why their Saison has that, you'd need to ask the brewer, but don't drop wheat for the sake of banana, because you're executing the wrong criminal.

WLP565, I've never used but researched it in the past and it looks like it'll do the job similar to WY3711.

I used Willamette (American Grown Fuggles) in my best Saison, not an issue in my books.

 

[earle]

Yep, don't shoot the wheat. I've made 100% wheat saisons with absolutely no banana, taste like saisons should and not like a hefeweizen.

Wyeast French Saison yeast gets my vote.

Also, don't trust clone recipes even if they're published on a reputable website like BYO. I've seen some with ingredients that are obviously wrong, and then they try to correct for that by adding another wrong ingredient such as an essence.

 

[Hez]

If you're getting the banana, it'll be yeast-derived, not the wheat. Like you said, German Wheat has the classic banana taste and that's derived from the yeast. Not sure why their Saison has that, you'd need to ask the brewer, but don't drop wheat for the sake of banana, because you're executing the wrong criminal.

WLP565, I've never used but researched it in the past and it looks like it'll do the job similar to WY3711.

I used Willamette (American Grown Fuggles) in my best Saison, not an issue in my books.

Maybe they weren't using the proper saison yeast. To be honest, this is one of the beer styles which I'm not very familiar with... last week I bought a Bridge Road Brewers Chevalier Saison (from Dan Murphy's) and it was way better, it didn't have so much banana flavour, but it tasted a little like a witbier and it wasn't as dry and acidic as I expected.

Also I had another saison on tap in Harts Pub (the Rocks, Sydney) a couple of months ago but it didn't convince me at all... it was a watery raspberry juice (no body at all, 3.8% abv, raspberry infused) but I give it a + for dryness and tartness.

Thanks for your advice, we're getting there... jejeje

By the way... Now I see my first post was overwhelming, I shouldn't have made ALL the calculations from the beginning. But I guess at some point all of you do the same, don't you? or you have so much experience that you throw stuff to the kettle and you get a perfect beer exactly as you wanted every time? That's a mom-superpower, open the fridge, put a little bit of this and a little bit of that without measuring anything and get a 3 michelin star dish.

 

[Hez]

What about (for a 10L batch with 70% efficiency):

GRAIN
~75% 2450g Pilsner
~20% 650g Wheat Malt
~3% 100g Munich (light) ?? with or without?
~2% 60g Vienna ?? with or without?
OG 1.060 - FG 1.007?? -> ABV 6.96%
SRM 4.24

MASH
40' 62ºC
40' 66ºC
10' 76ºC

WATER ADJUSTMENTS
Gypsum (CaSO4): 4.7g -> 3g mash + 1.7g sparge
Calc. Chloride (CaCl2): 3.3g -> 2.1g mash + 1.2g sparge
Lactic Acid 88%: 3.5ml (35drops) -> 23drops mash + 12drops sparge
PH 5.3; Ca 117ppm; Cl 113ppm; SO4 145ppm -> Ratio Chloride/Sulphate 0.78 = Balanced (low)
(that's from the calculator, but use: cal. chloride into the mash water, lactic acid into the sparge water and gypsum into the boil)

HOPS
60' 16g East Kent Goldings: 18.92IBU
15' 17g East Kent Goldings: 9.97IBU
0' @80ºC for 30' 17g East Kent Goldings: 0.87IBU
IBU 29.76

YEAST
WLP565

 

[earle]

I note that your revised recipe has a higher ABV than your original. It's totally up to you but for me saisons are an easy drinking summer beer. According to the BJCP guidelines they can have an ABV as low as 3.5. Most of mine have been around 4-5. Just depends what you really want.

 

[Hez]

I note that your revised recipe has a higher ABV than your original. It's totally up to you but for me saisons are an easy drinking summer beer. According to the BJCP guidelines they can have an ABV as low as 3.5. Most of mine have been around 4-5. Just depends what you really want.

Yes I think I calculated the ABV based into the default 1.014 FG from the calculator, but apparently saison yeasts reach lower FG.
If I were a farmer in the 18th century working under "the terrible Belgian sun" (LOL XD JAJAJA!) I guess I would like to drink 5L of beer a day, so 3.5% would be more than enough. Now we have safe-to-drink water and I plan to drink this beer with food, being properly hydrated and in moderate quantities... but yes, you're 100% right, 7% is too much for a "refreshing beer", I'll adjust it to 5.5-6% I reduced the OG from 1062 to 1060, I guess I should go for 1052.
Thanks for the observation!
I'll do the exact calculations when I have decided 100% on the recipe.

What do you think about adding the Munich and Vienna touch? yes or no?