BIAB, efficiency and ABV...

[Drover's dog]

Hi guys,
I’ve been away for a couple of weeks so haven’t be around to throw out a few questions. However, I’m back and have been concentrating on the issue of efficiency, also never reaching the ABV I expect. My first issue is that BrewMaster suggests an OG of say 1.065 and I will get an actual OG of 1.050. My system is fairly simple it’s a 40 litre electrically heated mash tun (BIAB) and a Grainfather fermenter, the fermenter I have confidence in, temperatures are solid and fermentation appears to go on for a week or so. Having said that, I’m not sure I’m getting the best out of the front end of my set up. I have been reading about recirculation and partial mash being options that would improve my efficiency but conflicting opinion make it difficult to decide which route to take. Or, wether I just put up with the lower efficiency and be done with it.

I just finished an English Pale ale with an ABV of 5.2 and it was magnificent, I currently have a Belgian Gold strong ale in the fermenter, we are up to day 5 and the sample is still very cloudy, the grain bill had lots of white powder that I guess was a wheat like flour. I’m hoping this will clear as time goes by. Any comment on either issue would be well a truly accepted.

 

[Wobbly74]

What mash efficiency are you getting, and are you adjusting efficiency down as gravity goes up? I can get upward of 88-90% mash efficiency for gravities in the low 40's but need to adjust this down to mid to low 80's as gravity heads north toward the mid 60's...

 

[MHB]

Going to have to ask a couple of questions.
First up Fermentability is mainly a function of mash temperature - what are you mash parameters, how accurate is your thermometer? how confidant that it is accurate?

Are you mashing full volume or doing some sort of sparge
What was your recipe, need to give kg's of malts. mash in temp and vol, any other water added, when and temperature, vol and SG going to the kettle.

If you are getting flour into the fermenter, you are doing something wrong, ideally all the trub should be left in the kettle, so probably a quick description of your kettle - Cube/wort chill - fermenter process would be helpful to.
Mark

 

[Drover's dog]

What mash efficiency are you getting, and are you adjusting efficiency down as gravity goes up? I can get upward of 88-90% mash efficiency for gravities in the low 40's but need to adjust this down to mid to low 80's as gravity heads north toward the mid 60's...

Look mate, I’m sorry to say I have no idea what you are talking about - not being rude, just new to brewing and still on a vertical learning curve. I will answer Mark's (MHB) questions maybe that will throw some light on to what you are actually asking me. I thank you for being patient.

 

[wynnum1]

If your getting good results would not worry about efficiency.

 

[MHB]

Well lets start with your recipe
Mass of each malt (Grain Bill)
Amount of water you mashed in with (Strike Water)
Temperature of the water you mashed in with (Strike Water Temperature)
What was your mash temperature? This is the temperature you get when you mix the Grain Bill and the Strike Water.

The mash temperature affects the activity of the Alpha and Beta Amylases, this determines how fermentable your wort will be (your FG)

Temperature is very important, so being able to measure it accurately is critical - back to the question above, how do you measure the temperature, This is usually the answer to unexpectedly high FG's and often to lower than expected yield (efficiency).

Happy to work through the process with you, just do it bit by bit.
Mark

 

[Drover's dog]

Going to have to ask a couple of questions.
First up Fermentability is mainly a function of mash temperature - what are you mash parameters, how accurate is your thermometer? how confidant that it is accurate?

Are you mashing full volume or doing some sort of sparge
What was your recipe, need to give kg's of malts. mash in temp and vol, any other water added, when and temperature, vol and SG going to the kettle.

If you are getting flour into the fermenter, you are doing something wrong, ideally all the trub should be left in the kettle, so probably a quick description of your kettle - Cube/wort chill - fermenter process would be helpful to.
Mark

Hi Mark,
The first part of your question is fairly easy for me; I have a temperature controlled electric mash cooker with claims a hysteresis of <+/- 1C. That and my thermometer give me consistent readings. I use the Brew Day sheet from BrewMate to determine my mash temperatures as in strike water temp and final mash temp, all of which appear sound.

The second part of your question regarding full volume mash or sparging. I take the total water count from BrewMate and use it for a total volume mash - no sparge. I have attached a copy of my current brew the "Belgian Gold” are day sheet. The sparge section of course I do not use. Other than that I follow the instructions as written.

Hope this helps (us) resolve my initial query…

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7e2sEHrBs58Mt5rG2

 

[Tony121]

What Brewhouse efficiency are your recipes set to? Mine sit between 65-70% for BIAB.

23L of 1.065 for 5kg’s of grain seems a lot to ask.

 

[Drover's dog]

Well lets start with your recipe
Mass of each malt (Grain Bill)
Amount of water you mashed in with (Strike Water)
Temperature of the water you mashed in with (Strike Water Temperature)
What was your mash temperature? This is the temperature you get when you mix the Grain Bill and the Strike Water.

The mash temperature affects the activity of the Alpha and Beta Amylases, this determines how fermentable your wort will be (your FG)

Temperature is very important, so being able to measure it accurately is critical - back to the question above, how do you measure the temperature, This is usually the answer to unexpectedly high FG's and often to lower than expected yield (efficiency).

Happy to work through the process with you, just do it bit by bit.
Mark

Here is a better scan now I’m next to my Mac...

 

[MHB]

Ok now just to clarify, how closely did you stick to the plan?
Did you do a sparge or was all the water in at the start
You have a thermometer - more info please, what is it and how reliable.
Mark

Just posting this so we can find it quickly

 

[Drover's dog]

What Brewhouse efficiency are your recipes set to? Mine sit between 65-70% for BIAB.

23L of 1.065 for 5kg’s of grain seems a lot to ask.

Tony121,
Great to hear from you. As I explained in an earlier note to Wobbley74 I am not familiar enough yet to answer your question “What Brewhouse efficiencies are your recipes set to”. At this stage I buy a pre-packed all grain recipe from a supplier and it comes with the Brew Day sheet that I use as my guide.

 

[Drover's dog]

Ok now just to clarify, how closely did you stick to the plan?
Did you do a sparge or was all the water in at the start
You have a thermometer - more info please, what is it and how reliable.
Mark

Just posting this so we can find it quickly
View attachment 112061

Thermometers, I have a digital and a glass regular type - both read the same and they agree pretty much with the mash cooker’s electronic temp controller.
NOW, what I failed to explain earlier is that I’m at the stage were I buy a pre-packed all grain recipe from a supplier and with it comes grain, yeast, hops and so on plus of course the brew day sheet. Firstly, I don’t measure the grain I trust it is as written on the brew day list. Secondly I am fairly careful with my total water at the start but have been making allowance for a 1.5L yeast starter that I have prepared ahead of brew day - I add the total starter to the fermenter. So what I’m saying is I reduce total water at the start of the mash by the 1.5L used in the starter. The electric BIAB mash cooker is reliable in terms of temperature, it provides a steady temperature throughout the mash period. I then remove the grain bag - drain for a few minutes then start the boil. I haven’t as yet checked the water absorption or any of those things. I do the rolling boil thing for whatever time, cool with a chiller and transfer the cooled wort to the fermenter. At this point I use a very (maybe) over efficient air pump and aerate the wort for a minimum of an hour, making sure starter and fermenter temps are were they should be and pitch… Lock down and wait. I set my Grainfather to Ale in this case and have selected 16C as my temp and 10 days as the fermentation period. I have been getting good signs at the air-lock for a week, sometimes longer. After taking several reading with the hydrometer and see no change, I transfer to a cube and cold crash.
That’s about the story, hope I haven’t missed too much. Your patience and interest is very much appreciated, learning as I am but I’ll get there. Just want to get it right.

 

[Tony121]

Tony121,
Great to hear from you. As I explained in an earlier note to Wobbley74 I am not familiar enough yet to answer your question “What Brewhouse efficiencies are your recipes set to”. At this stage I buy a pre-packed all grain recipe from a supplier and it comes with the Brew Day sheet that I use as my guide.

Apologies. Very crudely, mash efficiency is how much sugar you extract from the grains and Brewhouse efficiency is how much wort at what gravity you end up with in the fermenter.

I am not familiar with Brewmate, but it appears that it is asking a lot from your recipe - punching in rough numbers to Beersmith shows you need a Brewhouse efficiency of 95% to achieve what you are after, typically for BIAB it will sit around 65-75% (looks as though you have achieved about 72% by your numbers if you have 23L in the fermenter).

There should be a field in brewmate for efficiency that you can adjust.

 

[Tony121]

What type of beer are you trying to make and what expected abv does the supplier advise?

Can you post the recipe or offer a link?

 

[Drover's dog]

What type of beer are you trying to make and what expected abv does the supplier advise?

Can you post the recipe or offer a link?

Here is a link address to the particular beer that we have all been discussing….
https://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/cheeky-belgian-strong-all-grain-recipe-pack-makes-23ltr-of-beer

 

[Drover's dog]

Apologies. Very crudely, mash efficiency is how much sugar you extract from the grains and Brewhouse efficiency is how much wort at what gravity you end up with in the fermenter.

I am not familiar with Brewmate, but it appears that it is asking a lot from your recipe - punching in rough numbers to Beersmith shows you need a Brewhouse efficiency of 95% to achieve what you are after, typically for BIAB it will sit around 65-75% (looks as though you have achieved about 72% by your numbers if you have 23L in the fermenter).

There should be a field in brewmate for efficiency that you can adjust.

I don’t personally use a brew calculator as yet and BrewMate is the calculator used by the supplier of my pre-packed brew kit. Here is a link to the beer we have all been discussing.https://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/cheeky-belgian-strong-all-grain-recipe-pack-makes-23ltr-of-beer

I have the BIAB spreadsheet one of the AHB members developed but as yet haven’t taken the time time out to try and drive it, it’s a fairly complex spreadsheet. I do want to move on from the pre-pack kits but as a learner it’s difficult to pull all the ingredients together and know where to head next.

 

[Tony121]

I don’t personally use a brew calculator as yet and BrewMate is the calculator used by the supplier of my pre-packed brew kit. Here is a link to the beer we have all been discussing.https://cheekypeakbrewery.com.au/cheeky-belgian-strong-all-grain-recipe-pack-makes-23ltr-of-beer

I have the BIAB spreadsheet one of the AHB members developed but as yet haven’t taken the time time out to try and drive it, it’s a fairly complex spreadsheet. I do want to move on from the pre-pack kits but as a learner it’s difficult to pull all the ingredients together and know where to head next.

OK, not a huge amount of info on the website, just confirms 23L volume & 7% ABV expected. Now, the sheet you scanned shows total grain bill to be 5kgs & expected OG of 1.065.

To me that is way too high an expectation - close to 100% BH efficiency (97% by putting what numbers we have into Beersmith...). As I mentioned, typical BH efficiency sits around 65-75%, obviously this will be higher or lower for some but it is a rough guide.

I would ring Cheaky Peak and ask a few questions around the grain bill and also what efficiency they are basing their recipe on. They may be able to adjust for your future kits.

In regards to software, they are not too hard once you get your head around them. I highly recommend spending the time learning the spreadsheet, one of the free recipe builders or even the free trial of Beersmith - no affiliation to any, I use Beersmith as that is what I started with. This will give you a fair idea of the ins and outs and also teaches you the intricacies of your system i.e. volumes.

I’d recommend looking through some known recipes online and having a play around with the spreadsheet, I have not used it but assume you can adjust efficiency so it will show you how things can vary.

You could also try some recipes from Brewman. He delivers Australia wide and is extremely helpful. Again no affiliation, just a happy customer.

Hope this all makes sense.

Regards,
Tony

Edit: Picture

 

[Drover's dog]

OK, not a huge amount of info on the website, just confirms 23L volume & 7% ABV expected. Now, the sheet you scanned shows total grain bill to be 5kgs & expected OG of 1.065.

To me that is way too high an expectation - close to 100% BH efficiency (97% by putting what numbers we have into Beersmith...). As I mentioned, typical BH efficiency sits around 65-75%, obviously this will be higher or lower for some but it is a rough guide.

I would ring Cheaky Peak and ask a few questions around the grain bill and also what efficiency they are basing their recipe on. They may be able to adjust for your future kits.

In regards to software, they are not too hard once you get your head around them. I highly recommend spending the time learning the spreadsheet, one of the free recipe builders or even the free trial of Beersmith - no affiliation to any, I use Beersmith as that is what I started with. This will give you a fair idea of the ins and outs and also teaches you the intricacies of your system i.e. volumes.

I’d recommend looking through some known recipes online and having a play around with the spreadsheet, I have not used it but assume you can adjust efficiency so it will show you how things can vary.

You could also try some recipes from Brewman. He delivers Australia wide and is extremely helpful. Again no affiliation, just a happy customer.

Hope this all makes sense.

Regards,
Tony

Tony,
I agree with you that I should get my head around the spreadsheet and I am intent on doing so. As WYNNUM1 says if I’m getting good beer why bother with efficiencies. I guess for me learning the science (if you can call it that) is as important as the taste - well almost. Thanks for your comments, I’m about to delve into the depths of Excel.

 

[Tony121]

Tony,
I agree with you that I should get my head around the spreadsheet and I am intent on doing so. As WYNNUM1 says if I’m getting good beer why bother with efficiencies. I guess for me learning the science (if you can call it that) is as important as the taste - well almost. Thanks for your comments, I’m about to delve into the depths of Excel.

Need to clarify, I am not saying that you should be chasing the higher efficiency, it is that the recipe is expecting an unrealistic efficiency - hence the reason you don’t hit your numbers.

What you want is repeatability at whatever efficiency you get from your system, be it 60%, ,70% or 80%. Once you work out what your system delivers you can then adjust your recipes to suit i.e. add more grain. Kit packs won’t give that flexibility.

At the moment my system operates at around 70% and I’m happy with that as I know what to expect when developing a recipe. All it costs me is another couple of handfuls of grain.

Tony

 

[Drover's dog]

When all else fails I just go play with Rigger...