BIAB beginner - need advice!

[Cremmo_86]

Hi all!...

Am looking to dive into the wonderful world of BIAB brewing and after days of scouring through forums I just seem to be going around in circles. I want to go electric and was originally just going to bite the bullet and buy an urn, but have read that this volume can be limiting.
So I think I will now piece together parts and build my own on the cheapish side of things if possible.
I have some equipment as I've been doing kits and extracts for a while....so I think i'll need the following(correct me if i'm wrong):

A pot(kettle), heating element, false bottom, PID or PWM(if necessary), wort chiller,

Starting with this 70 litre stainless stockpot http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4246
- with predrilled hole for spigot/ball-valve. Seems like good value and a good size.

A heating element - I don't know what wattage would be best given i'll only be doing 23 litre batches in the 70 litre pot. Everyone raves about the 4500 camco low density element out of the U.S but I can't be bothered ordering something in from America unless I'm convinced otherwise. There are these elements but seem pricey and not sure if they'll be powerful enough....
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3853
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4616

False bottoms seem very pricey for this size pot so is there any way I can make an effective yet cheap alternative?

A temperature controller....either a PID or PWM. I've read that the PWM is the cheaper alternative but is a completely manual and the PID does things automatically. I've found this on ebay.....thoughts?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-Digital-PID-Temperature-controller-MAX-25A-SSR-K-thermocouple-Sensor-/231333835662?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item35dc92338e

And I haven't even really looked in to wort chillers yet :unsure:

Thanks in advance

Mitch

 

[TheWiggman]

Congrats on diving into the world of AG, many good years ahead.
I'm on the phone so I'll try to address your queries. That PID controller you linked, I have 2 of them sitting in my garage getting mounted into control boxes. They're cheap and they work (and have made in Japan printed in them, but they definitely aren't). However you don't need temp control to do BIAB and if you do you'll need a pump and all the fittings to go with it. Up to you.
False bottoms are varied. Lots of people make their own, but if don't yeah they're expensive. You'll only by one though. Consider using a braided hose as it's much cheaper.
For elements, lots out there. A 70l pot is overkill for 23 batch but will do double batches. I wouldn't go anything less than 3600W for a 55l boil, and 4800 would be a good size. It will however cost more in electricity and boil the bejesus out of a 23l batch. Check out 5 star elements or still dragon for 4800W. For smaller ones, I have a 3600W and 2400W from onlinebrewingsupplies, and I can't recommend them enough. He also has the braid I mentioned earlier.
Hope that info helps, there are many ways to skin the BIAB cat and ultimately it'll all be how you want it.

 

[Bribie G]

40L urns will handle 23L brews with no problems whatsoever.

The only limitation comes in when you want to do a 8% headbanger or something, but there are ways around it, for example doing a side sparge and a longer boil.

If you are going more powerful than a 2400 w urn then you'd probably need to install a 15 amp circuit or put two 2200 elements in the pot and run one locally and the other one from an extension lead from the laundry or whatever... could get fiddly.

edit; 2400w not kw. :blink:

 

[Cremmo_86]

Thanks Wiggman...will skip the PID controller then. Am just interested in temp control of the element, particularily if doing larger batches in future, and was unsure how to go about it....is this unnecessary for BIAB? Might just have to bite the bullet and fork out for a false bottom but will look into the braided hose. I know 70l seems like overkill but I will probably be doing larger/double/higher gravity brews at some point in the future and It seems pretty good value compared to everything else I've looked at. Think I'll aim for a 3600 w element...seems like the middle ground.

 

[Cremmo_86]

Thanks Bribie G....so if I invest in anything above a 2400 watt element I wont be able to just plug it in and run it?

 

[Bribie G]

I'm not a sparky but I guess it depends on your household circuits whether you are going to fry the wiring or trip the circuit breaker when you switch on.

For example I was at a brew day with my urn and it tripped out because the guy had a pedestal fan going on the same circuit... old house.

Birko do a 3000w urn but it comes with a 15a plug.

 

[brewermp]

Hey mate look at 5 star distilling a elements. Good quality and ship from Australia. I have a keg king (bought from craft brewer) element hooked up to a stc1000 to temperature control the boil.


But keep in mind a lot of people on here have had bad experiences with the KK elements. Do a search.

Beauty about electric is waking up in the morning and not having to wait for the water to be ready. Also mash temps are maintained easier.

 

[contrarian]

The 70l pot is a great size and can easily knock out 40l BIAB or more.

With electric you do need to consider access to circuits. If you can access 2 from where you will brew you will be fine but if not it will be tricky. If you go electric it's worth insulating the pot as much as possible as it will help with your boil.

I use gas which costs a little more each brew but was preferable to me. A 3 ring burner with a medium flow regulator will do the job.

Not sure if a false bottom is required to begin with. I've never had one and don't have any issues.

One thing I would suggest is to get a decent bag, the ones from craftbrewer seem expensive compared to other options but they are heavy duty and will last for ages, they are also easier to lift.

I'd suggest starting as simple as possible and then adding to your setup as required once you get a feel for your process.

Consider no chill instead of chilling. All you need is the plastic cubes from some fresh wort kits, transfer the hot wort into sanitised cube with some silicone hose and you're done. Normally ready to ferment the next day or whenever you need them.

 

[Cremmo_86]

The 70l pot is a great size and can easily knock out 40l BIAB or more.

With electric you do need to consider access to circuits. If you can access 2 from where you will brew you will be fine but if not it will be tricky. If you go electric it's worth insulating the pot as much as possible as it will help with your boil.

I use gas which costs a little more each brew but was preferable to me. A 3 ring burner with a medium flow regulator will do the job.

Not sure if a false bottom is required to begin with. I've never had one and don't have any issues.

One thing I would suggest is to get a decent bag, the ones from craftbrewer seem expensive compared to other options but they are heavy duty and will last for ages, they are also easier to lift.

I'd suggest starting as simple as possible and then adding to your setup as required once you get a feel for your process.

Consider no chill instead of chilling. All you need is the plastic cubes from some fresh wort kits, transfer the hot wort into sanitised cube with some silicone hose and you're done. Normally ready to ferment the next day or whenever you need them.

Will any electric system I decide to run with require me to have access to 2 circuits? What if I was only running say a 2000watt element for a 50litre kettle doing 23 litre batches?

I work at an oil refinery/margarine plant so have access to free food grade 25l cubes. So the no chill option sounds great....I wasn't aware you could do that. Is head space an issue if doing this?

I'm definately aiming to keep it simple to start with!

 

[Cremmo_86]

Hey mate look at 5 star distilling a elements. Good quality and ship from Australia. I have a keg king (bought from craft brewer) element hooked up to a stc1000 to temperature control the boil.


But keep in mind a lot of people on here have had bad experiences with the KK elements. Do a search.

Beauty about electric is waking up in the morning and not having to wait for the water to be ready. Also mash temps are maintained easier.

Thanks mate....those elements look like a good bit of kit! Where would I find the Stc1000 temp control?

 

[squirt in the turns]

eBay for the STC-1000.

Standard GPOs are rated for 10 amps. So with a 2KW element you will have ~400W left over to run a pump (if you decide to go that route) or anything else you want to plug in to an (appropriately rated - this is important) power board.

Depending on how your house is wired, a double GPO outlet on your wall might only have 10 amp rated wiring behind it (or a 10 amp circuit breaker). I think it's fairly common for modern houses to have 20 amp circuits, in which case from a double GPO you could run 2 elements of up to 2400W each, one from each socket. But check your circuit breakers to be sure.

Head space in the cube is not ideal when no-chilling. HDPE cubes are the de-facto standard for no-chill and deform easily when hot, making it easy to squeeze the air out and seal. Wear oven gloves for that bit or squeeze the cube against something inanimate with your foot (wear shoes).

 

[TheWiggman]

I'm an idiot - yes, if doing BIAB no false bottom is required. False bottoms are for when you don't have a bag.
A single power point is designed to max at 2400W (10A) Depending on the circuit in the house, the total draw from a combination of power points will probably exceed 4800W, so you may be able to plug a kettle and your BIAB into a dual socket power point without issues.
I checked my house, 3 years old, and each circuit is 20A. So good for 4800W but no more. If someone turns on a TV you'll be stuffed.

 

[TheWiggman]

.
(Network error? Double post more like it)

 

[Cremmo_86]

Thanks for all your help guys!
In trying to keep things as simple as possible as i'm just starting out...I think ill go with this smaller kettle, comes with brass spigot and a thermometer.
http://www.brewmart.com.au/brewmart-shop/catalogue/?detail&ItemID=4162&SZIDX=0&CCODE=18102-50ET&QOH=0&CATID=421&CLN=1
I can pinch a stainless ball valve from work in the future but the brassy will do for the time being.

Am thinking a 2000w element will be alright and I can insulate the kettle if I have issues getting a rolling boil. Something like this....
http://www.brewmart.com.au/brewmart-shop/catalogue/?detail&ItemID=3041&SZIDX=0&CCODE=47006&QOH=4&CATID=329&CLN=1
Or I could buy a cheap kettle and pull the element out...I think most kettles are 2000w.
Your thoughts?

Spoke to a sparky mate and he can score me a 10a @ 240v thermostat or 2 for temp control of the element.
I thought a false bottom was needed so you didn't scorch the BIAB bag on the element??

I have a BIAB bag and will see how it goes...as to whether its robust enough. Bought it from the local Country Brewer store so it might be alright.

Do you think ill need a bazooka screen or something similar to filter out the wort in to the fermenter?

Cheers :chug:

 

[michaeld16]

I use a kettle element works well for single batches, ive installed 2 in my kettle but only use one, the second is just incase one dies mid boil. As for a false bottom i use a stainless cake rack to keep the bag off the element if i want to ramp up to mash out temp a great idea i got from this site

 

[squirt in the turns]

Yep, I don't BIAB but the cake rack is the standard solution everyone cites. Or, hoist the bag up while the element's on. Starting out you'll probably want to do single temperature infusion mashes and won't need to turn the element on during the mash, especially if you insulate the vessel well to minimise heat loss. If you want to do step mashes later then a recirculating system (using a pump) will help, and you'll need a reliable solution to keep the bag off the element.

The only reasons I can think of not to use a cheap element out of a K-Mart or similar kettle is that it'll probably be harder to fit (depending on the design) and will be super high density, meaning more chance of scorching the wort. If you ever decide to try step mashes then protein rests would probably be a no-no (wort scorches very easily with all those large protein molecules unbroken, or something). Although you could do a protein rest and raise to saccharification temps with a hot water infusion.

A screen or filter in the kettle usually works well to keep most of the hop and break material in the kettle. Another method is to whirlpool the wort at flameout (or power-off in your case). Basically stir it in one direction with a big spoon for a few minutes, lid on, allow to settle. When you drain the wort you should have a nice cone of hop and hot break material sat in the middle that you can avoid picking up. You'll need a pick-up tube which draws wort from as close the the edge of the vessel as possible. Or you can siphon.

 

[contrarian]

The other option to keep the bag off the bottom is a stainless pizza tray, the ones with the hikes in them, and a few stainless bolts. I've never bothered with step mashing but that's the way I would go.

It's also worth thinking about if you will ever want to do double batches. The investment in capacity at the beginning can save you replacing the whole system in the future, especially the pot!

 

[Cremmo_86]

Cheers for the input everyone.

After a few days of procrastination, researching and getting nowhere in particular...I have at least made one decision. I will go with a bigger volume kettle...60-70 litres - seems the smart thing to do. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. I like the stainless 70 litre stockpot from craftbrewer, but
I've heard of people using pots with a steamer basket and stumbled upon these 60 litre aluminium jobs with steamer basket...
http://www.kamikazefishing.com/p/aluminium-stockpot-deep-basket-60l/PRI-765186
If I get one without the steamer basket then i'll just have to sort a false bottom out. Can't seem to find a decent alternative to the pricey ones :unsure:
The steamer basket seems like it would work well for the mash and to keep the bag and grain off the element. It does look like it has a pouring spout on the pot though, meaning the lid might not seal that well and make it hard to maintain mash temp. Thoughts?

The elements from 5 star distilling look quality and i'm leaning towards them over anything else I've found.....fairly certain i'll end up with one.

Cheers :beerbang:

 

[contrarian]

Here's an idea for a cheaper false bottom that will keep the bag off the element

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/62914-cheap-biab-bag-rest/

If you are raising the temp with the bag in you always need to be stirring while you do it, unless you want to run a pump for recirculation.

Good call on the pot size. You won't regret it!

 

[mje1980]

70l stock pot and an element. I have a pulley but hardly use it now as I lift the bag with my arms ( they're good for lifting stuff ) and use pegs to hold it up off the bottom while heating through mash temps, though I have gas so you might need the cake rack thingy. And a digital thermometer. Brew beer