BeerSmith calculations

[Crusty]

I plugged in a whit recipe that was 70%. Scaled to my eff of 78%. Original called for 1049 post boil & 1033 pre boil. I got 1033 pre boil bot only 1042 post boil, volumes correct. This works out 67% eff so scaled to that to get original 1049 post but with extra grain, why is pre boil still 1033. If I scale again to get my result of 1042, I now get 1028 pre boil.
Thoughts

 

[Black n Tan]

I think you may be getting brewhouse efficiency mixed up with boil off. The difference between pre-boil and post-boil gravity is purely based on how much water is boiled off. The total sugars remain the same during this process, it is just they became more concentrated as the volume is reduced (pre-boil SG x volume= post-boil SG x volume). Brewhouse efficiency is about the losses in your system which includes mash efficiency (how effectively you extract the sugars from the grain) and losses to kettle/trub etc. When I enter someone else's recipe in BS I enter it exactly as they have written and then use the 'adjust gravity' tab to target the desired OG which will factor in brewhouse efficiency for your system. The pre-boil gravity will be calculated based on your boil off rate to hit your target post-boil SG. Your boils off rate is less than theirs, so you will need to hit a higher pre-boil SG to hit target post-boil SG, so you should ignore their pre-boil SG as it based on their system. If calculated pre-boil SP is not giving you your expected post-boil SG, then you need to adjust the boil off rate in the equipment profile section (your boil off rate per hour =[(1-33/42)x pre-boil volume)]/boil time (hours).

I hope that makes some sense.

 

[dannymars]

I find the volume calculations to be frustrating and confusing also :-/

 

[Black n Tan]

It is confusing, but if you can get them right in the equipment profile in BS then everything becomes are breeze after that. Crusty do you have a braumiester? What is your equipment profile?

 

[kaiserben]

Black n Tan figured it out.

To put it more simply: You don't want to change the efficiency of the recipe itself, you want to scale the recipe to fit your own brewing system profile.

 

[Crusty]

It is confusing, but if you can get them right in the equipment profile in BS then everything becomes are breeze after that. Crusty do you have a braumiester? What is your equipment profile?

Yeah mate, Ive got the 50lt but use the short malt pipe most of the time.



So just copy the recipe as is & scale the recipe to fit your own brewing system profile.
If the recipe is for a 23lt batch @70% eff, I would...........?

 

[Black n Tan]

1/ enter the ingredients as for the 23L recipe and put the batch size to 23L
2/ then use the 'scale recipe' to your batch size to 20L,
3/ then 'adjust gravity' to the desired gravity (as a result of differences in efficiency)
4/ then i adjust my hop additions manually to the desired IBU if they are not correct, although you could then use 'adjust bitterness'.

 

[antiphile]

Howdy Crusty (are you really a clown? Love the Tellie appearances BTW)

I gotta agree with Black'n'Tan. The default in the equipment profile for boil-off in beersmith seems way too high to me. I'm still trying to get it right and keep bringing down the number (and I'm not stingey with the boil 'cos I like it to be reasonably vigorous). I'm about to disable the tick box that measures it per hour even though my normal boil is close to 90 mins, because my post-boil OG always seems to be too high in the program compared to real life.

Good luck with it, mate.

 

[Crusty]

1/ enter the ingredients as for the 23L recipe and put the batch size to 23L
2/ then use the 'scale recipe' to your batch size to 20L,
3/ then 'adjust gravity' to the desired gravity (as a result of differences in efficiency)
4/ then i adjust my hop additions manually to the desired IBU if they are not correct, although you could then use 'adjust bitterness'.

When should you put in your equipment profile?
Before you scale it?

 

[Black n Tan]

yes use your standard equipment profile when you set up the recipe, so step 1..

 

[Crusty]

1/ enter the ingredients as for the 23L recipe and put the batch size to 23L
2/ then use the 'scale recipe' to your batch size to 20L,
3/ then 'adjust gravity' to the desired gravity (as a result of differences in efficiency)
4/ then i adjust my hop additions manually to the desired IBU if they are not correct, although you could then use 'adjust bitterness'.

How would I fix this then to account for my actual measured figures in the bottom right corner.
I'm still a bit lost with it.

 

[Blind Dog]

It's your actual numbers that you should be using to refine your equipment profile. I've ended up with 3 differnt profiles for my 20L BM depending on what I'm brewing and how

 

[Crusty]

Yeah I kind of get that & up until this Wit recipe yesterday, for the most part, my numbers have been pretty spot on.
The big surprise was my expected 1.049 but actual 1.042 so 70% actual eff as opposed to my usual 78%. What I normally do is copy a recipe as is & then scale it to my eff & volume. I make the beer & record my numbers & like yesterday, the eff for that Wit with those ingredients is 70%. What I would then do is scale the recipe to the actual figures I got ( 70% ) & the ingredients have now been boosted to get me the original gravity of 1.049 which I was aiming for in the first place. This is also on the right track yeah?

 

[QldKev]

I plugged in a whit recipe that was 70%. Scaled to my eff of 78%. Original called for 1049 post boil & 1033 pre boil. I got 1033 pre boil bot only 1042 post boil, volumes correct. This works out 67% eff so scaled to that to get original 1049 post but with extra grain, why is pre boil still 1033. If I scale again to get my result of 1042, I now get 1028 pre boil.
Thoughts

This doesn't make sense, Beersmith or any other brew software. You only boil off water and not sugar so it is directly proportional to the set values. What were the pre-boil vol, and post boil vol. (note post boil vol is not vol into fermenter, as that would allow kettle losses)

edit: it should just be pre-boil gravity points "33" * pre-boil vol / post-boil vol = final gravity points.
for example
29L boiled down to a 26L, with 3L kettle loss for a 23L batch.
"33" * 29 / 26 = 36 ( aka 1.036)

To get "1049 post boil & 1033 pre boil." is a massive boil off , at 45%, and would over caramalise the wort

 

[antiphile]

Ahh. Ok, Crusty. So ignoring the insignificant amouunt of acidulated malt, it's 50% pilsner and 50% rolled wheat (so it's possibly a diastatic power problem related to the mash). Is it possible to use your BS2 program to use the "export selected" function and attach it to a post (so we can see the details like mash steps etc)?

 

[Black n Tan]

Yeah I kind of get that & up until this Wit recipe yesterday, for the most part, my numbers have been pretty spot on.
The big surprise was my expected 1.049 but actual 1.042 so 70% actual eff as opposed to my usual 78%. What I normally do is copy a recipe as is & then scale it to my eff & volume. I make the beer & record my numbers & like yesterday, the eff for that Wit with those ingredients is 70%. What I would then do is scale the recipe to the actual figures I got ( 70% ) & the ingredients have now been boosted to get me the original gravity of 1.049 which I was aiming for in the first place. This is also on the right track yeah?

This makes sense to me. So with your current equipment profile and 78% efficiency you normally hit your numbers. However you didn't with your Wit: wheat has no husk so your mill may need to tightened to crush it properly and/or unmalted wheat can reduce efficiency. So i agree with your approach to just adjust the efficiency for the recipe to 70% and increase the grain to get your target OG.

 

[QldKev]

Ahh. Ok, Crusty. So ignoring the insignificant amouunt of acidulated malt, it's 50% pilsner and 50% rolled wheat (so it's possibly a diastatic power problem related to the mash). Is it possible to use your BS2 program to use the "export selected" function and attach it to a post (so we can see the details like mash steps etc)?

Going by the original figures it is def not a DP issue, he hit his pre-boil vols and eff.

This makes sense to me. So with your current equipment profile and 78% efficiency you normally hit your numbers. However you didn't with your Wit: wheat has no husk so your mill may need to tightened to crush it properly and/or unmalted wheat can reduce efficiency. So i agree with your approach to just adjust the efficiency for the recipe to 70% and increase the grain to get your target OG.

But he said he did hit his pre-boil eff%. Any diff in pre-boil Vs post-boil eff is an issue in volumes and not mash conversion eff%

 

[antiphile]

D'oh! Thanks, QldKev. I should have remembered that one. (antiphile puts on his tall pointy hat and sits in the corner -_- )

 

[Black n Tan]

Going by the original figures it is def not a DP issue, he hit his pre-boil vols and eff.





But he said he did hit his pre-boil eff%. Any diff in pre-boil Vs post-boil eff is an issue in volumes and not mash conversion eff%

Not sure I can find where he said that he hit his pre-boil efficiency?? I have already made a comment about the pre-boil and post-boil above (post#2).

 

[QldKev]

Not sure I can find where he said that he hit his pre-boil efficiency?? I have already made a comment about the pre-boil and post-boil above (post#2).

pic in post #6 says a lot