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Ross

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Ross said:
warrenlw63 said:
Ross if you've got a CP filler you can fill from the keg. Having a filter, filtered beer would be a pretty awesome presentation for a comp too. Less worries about how the stewards handle your bottles as well.

Warren -
[post="52558"][/post]​
I was of exactly the same mind as I hate bottle priming - but after a chat with a Brisbane judge, he advised me against it - saying that when judging, if they got a beer that was excellent, but not bottle conditioned, they couldn't help but have doubt over its authenticity & would more than likely give a close decision to the bottle conditioned one!!!

Probably should have posted this to a new thread as I'm sure it will evoke some response from judges here??

Infact I will repost the question...
[post="52569"][/post]​
Ok reposted here....
 

warrenlw63

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Ross,

I'm not aware of who the judge is and his level of expertise but I'd have to say that basically he/she is F.O.S. <_<

If a judge can't tell a homebrewed beer apart from a commercial variant, he/she shouldn't be judging.

How do they tell an opaque stout apart from a commercial one?

Warren -
 

warrenlw63

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warrenlw63 said:
Ross,

I'm not aware of who the judge is and his level of expertise but I'd have to say that basically he/she is F.O.S. <_<

If a judge can't tell a homebrewed beer apart from a commercial variant, he/she shouldn't be judging.

How do they tell an opaque stout apart from a commercial one?

Warren -
[post="52572"][/post]​

See my post on diacetyl rest.

Warren -
 

Dunkel_Boy

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I was thinking if they did do this, surely they should also name the commercial beer it tastes like, or actually is...
 

pint of lager

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In all the comps I have judged at, it is via double blind. The judges do not see the beer being poured from the bottle to the jug. They only see the beer poured from the jug to the glass. So the judge has no idea as to the amount of sediment in the bottle, unless it is a gusher and the sediment pushes up when opened. The judges only see how carbonated the beer is.

I remember reading a few years ago on HBD the same debate, CPF or natural carbonate. The people who were discussing it were very good brewers and judges who had tried both methods. They eventually decided to go back to bottle conditioning for their beers rather than CPF as they believed it gave a better result.
 

warrenlw63

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My only advice would be if you're going to enter a CP filled bottle, do it about a week out (or as close as possible) from a comp.

My rap against CP filled bottles is that they seem to go off quite easily over time. Like everything though if you don't follow CP filling procedures properly you're doomed to failure.

Warren -
 

warrenlw63

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Dunkel_Boy said:
I was thinking if they did do this, surely they should also name the commercial beer it tastes like, or actually is...
[post="52575"][/post]​
Very good DB :lol:

Any judge who comes up with such stupidity in the first place most likely wouldn't know.

Warren -
 

pint of lager

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warrenlw63 Today, 02:07 PM

I'm not aware of who the judge is and his level of expertise but I'd have to say that basically he/she is F.O.S.
Yes, this judge is suspect and needs to go back to the drawing board.

If a judge can't tell a homebrewed beer apart from a commercial variant, he/she shouldn't be judging.
No, not so. I have tasted many homebrew beers that anyone would pay handsomely for in a bottleshop.

How do they tell an opaque stout apart from a commercial one?
Two easy ways. Get a torch and shine it through the glass. Or, pour 50% stout and 50% water into a fresh glass and you can easily see if the beer is cloudy or clear.
 

warrenlw63

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pint of lager said:
Two easy ways. Get a torch and shine it through the glass. Or, pour 50% stout and 50% water into a fresh glass and you can easily see if the beer is cloudy or clear.
[post="52581"][/post]​
Which brings me back to the point POL. Any judge with this much gumption isn't going to give such suspect advice about CP filled and filtered bottles looking/tasting like commercial beers in the first place.

Judged in enough comps. to know that this wouldn't happen. (Judges carrying torches in their pockets and turning beer into cordial aren't too frequent either) ;)

Warren -
 

Kai

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I reckon warren would be right, that filtered, CP filled bottles would go off quicker. Having yeast still in the bottle seems to help preserve beer, just look to Coopers vs the rest of the megabreweries here for an example; even with the additional pasteurisation step, the non-coopers beers don't keep anywhere near as long, though I guess it could be possible that pasteurisation might accelerate chemical decomposition.

But, that shorter shelf life might not really be an issue if you're drinking it quick. Though being non-technically minded (and not having any kegs or CO2 or whatnot), I think you can get a fairly clear beer with minimal sediment even when bottle conditioning. Of course, though, once it's out of your hands there's nothing you can do about it, but I reckon a good comp shouldn't be screwing up your beers to0 much, or at the very least allowing for some haze from shipping.
 

Ross

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I guesss then the only drawback to CPF then, is that you need to bottle fairly close to comp time, which would rule out any beers I make over the next 6 months, as I won't be tying up a keg with a few bottles worth left in it.

Why out of interest would the CPF bottle turn any quicker than a keg, especially if stored at a nice cold temp?
What time scale are we talking from your experiences that CPF bottles last?
 

Kai

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I reckon having the yeast in there is what does it, Ross. Having the yeast doing the priming would help mop up any O2 introduced by the bottling.

But, that's only speculation on my part. I don't know if it's really true.
 

warrenlw63

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Ross said:
What time scale are we talking from your experiences that CPF bottles last?
[post="52593"][/post]​
Varies Ross,

I've got bottles of Barleywine still going well after 4 years in the bottle. OTOH I've CP filled a couple of bottles of Wit that went pretty crappy after 3 weeks.

The beer doesn't seem to develop cardboard as such. What I've noticed is that a lot of the more delicate aromas of paler, highly hopped or spiced beers seem to dimish rapidly. I've done side by side of a CP filled bottle and the same beer poured from a keg. You can pick some differences.

Warren -
 

Ross

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Kai said:
I reckon having the yeast in there is what does it, Ross. Having the yeast doing the priming would help mop up any O2 introduced by the bottling.

[post="52597"][/post]​
Kai,

I just fill my bottles from the keg direct by tap at the moment - The beer foams up the neck removing all the oxyygen & is then capped, so oxygen shouldn't be an issue. I think its more that bottled conditioned beer is conditioning for a long period, whereas a kegged beer is already on its downward cycle, but would have thought the kegged bottle would last as long as a keg...
 

Kai

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I don't think the foaming up to the neck would remove all oxygen. It's not just air that's the problem, it's O2 that dissolves into the beer as you bottle. In fact, foaming would probably mean more O2 dissolution, as you've suddenly got a whole lot more surface area for oxygen to get into.

Again, though, rampant speculation on my part.
 

sosman

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My experience is that CPF filled bottles have a tendency to deteriorate faster than bottle conditioned.

Although I have never tried this, and assuming there was viable yeast in the kegged beer, a 3rd possibility might be to CPF your beer and prime it (maybe even adding some yeast).
 

Dunkel_Boy

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I know that Chimay (and probably others) add yeast to their bottles, but I woudl think something like that would be an exact science... how can we measure yeast numbers/viability, and know how much to add, as well as residual sugar conversion if we add new yeast. Or maybe I'm just making it sound complicated...
 

warrenlw63

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sosman said:
My experience is that CPF filled bottles have a tendency to deteriorate faster than bottle conditioned.

Although I have never tried this, and assuming there was viable yeast in the kegged beer, a 3rd possibility might be to CPF your beer and prime it (maybe even adding some yeast).
[post="52658"][/post]​
I've done that with a couple of Belgians Sosman.

Works pretty well. Allows you to use the keg as a secondary. I just rack to another keg with yeast and priming sugar. It also allows you to purge your bottles to minimise oxygen uptake.

Warren -
 
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