Be Careful Of Co2

[MarkBastard]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/man-dies...00311-q005.html

We all know this can happen but reading about it actually happening makes me want to be a bit more cautious in future.

On that note, is there a formula for example where you give the cubic metre size of a room, and then add say 2kg of co2 to it, and then work out how lethal it is?

 

[Snow]

Oh dear that is scary - and very sad. Poor bloke.

I keep my CO2 bottle in a well ventilated area, so I doubt this could happen at my place, but it is certainly a wake-up call.

- Snow.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Fair point MB, remember however, that CO2 is heavier than O2, and the unfortunate accident occured in a cellar. A gas leakage into a cellar is always going to be far more dangerous than a normal room in your average home. Normal rooms are leaky (under doors etc), and the C02 is not likely to push out all of the atmosphere like it would in a cellar.

However it is an unfortunate reminder that C02 is something to be careful with!

Cheers SJ

 

[praxis178]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/man-dies...00311-q005.html

We all know this can happen but reading about it actually happening makes me want to be a bit more cautious in future.

On that note, is there a formula for example where you give the cubic metre size of a room, and then add say 2kg of co2 to it, and then work out how lethal it is?

Something I just found online in that vain re the amount that is toxic and what concentrations do what...

>>>>
Basic Information about Concentrations of CO2 in Air

1,000,000 ppm of a gas = 100 % concentration of the gas, and 10,000 ppm of a gas in air = a 1% concentration.
At 1% concentration of carbon dioxide CO2 (10,000 parts per million or ppm) and under continuous exposure at that level, such as in an auditorium filled with occupants and poor fresh air ventilation, some occupants are likely to feel drowsy.
The concentration of carbon dioxide must be over about 2% (20,000 ppm) before most people are aware of its presence unless the odor of an associated material (auto exhaust or fermenting yeast, for instance) is present at lower concentrations.
Above 2%, carbon dioxide may cause a feeling of heaviness in the chest and/or more frequent and deeper respirations.
If exposure continues at that level for several hours, minimal "acidosis" (an acid condition of the blood) may occur but more frequently is absent.
Breathing rate doubles at 3% CO2 and is four times the normal rate at 5% CO2.
Toxic levels of carbon dioxide: at levels above 5%, concentration CO2 is directly toxic. [At lower levels we may be seeing effects of a reduction in the relative amount of oxygen rather than direct toxicity of CO2.]
Symptoms of high or prolonged exposure to carbon dioxide include headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, fatigue, rapid breathing, visual and hearing dysfunctions. Exposure to higher levels may cause unconsciousness or death within minutes of exposure.
<<<<

So above 5% by volume and you're on borrowed time. So for a room of 3m by 3m by 2.4m to the ceiling just 2.122kg of CO2 would be over the 5% mark. I could give the maths but here are the important bits: 1mol of CO2=44g, 1mol of gas=22.4L, there are 44.64mols/m^3 this is all at 1atm and standard temp.

Something to keep in mind, and very sad about the loss of life.....

 

[komodo]

I dont imagine that would be a very plesant way to go. Poor bloke.

 

[oldmacdonald]

It actually wouldn't be a bad way to go - at least as good as gassing yourself in the car. You'd effectively be hyperventilating until you passed out and suffocate after you're unconscious. Would be almost like dropping off to sleep. Would have happened fairly quickly as if he'd noticed much discomfort or wasn't feeling too good he would have got out of the cellar. Was probably pretty quick and painless really.

 

[MarkBastard]

Seems like people keeping their keg setups in their living rooms etc should be getting as small a bottle as possible.

I'm starting to think I should maybe be force carbing with a gas bottle in the garage or even outside, and then using a soda stream bottle for serving.

Or at least getting one of those 2kg canisters.

Without a co2 detection alarm would we really know?

 

[Pollux]

mmmm, I have a 6.8kg bottle inside my keg fridge, which is in the laundry which comes off the kitchen.

I don't see it as being a risk in summer as we always have the place open and the southerlies through here can be hitting 50km/h regularly....


Winter however, lets just hope if it does go, the ****** seals on the doors and windows will be enough to save me.

 

[MarkBastard]

I guess in most homes you'd hear a co2 cylinder emptying. It'd sound very loud and obvious.

My concern would be if I had my windows closed downstairs (which I do all the time at night) and the bottle emptied during the night, and then me or my wife goes downstairs and sort of walks into it without realising. By then it'd be settled, no sounds, and if it was at 6% it could be unnoticeable but deadly.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Big part of OH&S when you work in a brewery - it'd be an OK way to go, you pass out very fast in a low oxygen/high C02 environment, then you are toast.

Just need to hope like hell that the people who try to rescue you don't walk down the stairs into it....

As Supra Pointed out though, very unlikely that you would get a dangerous build up in a normal above ground room - houses are way too leaky. Worth being careful though, thats for sure.

 

[Doogiechap]

A few years ago I stuck my head in a recently emptied fermenter post bottling to grab a whiff and the effect of the high CO2 levels was instant ! I had a brief flash of darkness and was barely standing till I got a breath of fresh air. It's also worth considering how you transport your CO2 as well.
There was a thread a few years ago where a CO2 cylinder vented whilst it was in the front seat of a moving car. Driver and passenger were OK but it was not a pleasant situation. .

 

[MarkBastard]

Actually I think I have felt something like that while purging co2 from a keg. Sort of light headed feeling and short of breath.

Times like this I really wish I had a nice semi-enclosed outdoor area.

 

[praxis178]

Actually I think I have felt something like that while purging co2 from a keg. Sort of light headed feeling and short of breath.

Times like this I really wish I had a nice semi-enclosed outdoor area.

Had two close calls in my life, TB might be able to relate to these <grin> both were at work, the first was being the first person to arrive at work (major winery in Robinvale, I won't mention names) and on opening the side door to the production area had a solid wall of CO2 wash over me, if I hadn't been hanging on to the door I would have ended up on my back in a pool of the *****. Call two was being ordered into a recently emptied fermenter (25KL, in France) and on opening the hatch feeling the CO2 wind on my face (makes your eyes "prickle" sort of like pins and needles), took a smart step back and said "everyone out" and staggered (yes staggered) away with one guy holding me up. Each time I had a cracker of a head ache afterwards.

Not fun, but if you work in the fermentative industries it's kinda par for the course that sooner or later you will have a close call which you hopefully get to walk away from....

 

[white.grant]

A good friend of mine, Jim, was working on a job with his offsider at the steelworks in Newie in a bunded pipe trench. Suddenly the offsider, kneeling down in the trench keels over. Jim jumps in a pulls him up out of the trench and he slowly revives. Seems a CO2 line had ruptured further up and waves of the gas were flowing down the trench. Jim was lucky that he didn't bend down or he would have lost consciousness too.

I guess even outside, being in the wrong place can also be serious.

 

[Sunshine_Brewer]

It happens so quick!

I remember sticking my head in a drained fermenter(1000L) after fermentation and getting very dizzy in the head after only one breath my eyes stung a tiny bit too. You have to be very aware of these dangers in the industry us homebrewers dont need to worry to much I get good levels of (head) spinning after a sniff from my fermenter(20L).

 

[absinthe]

It happens so quick!

I remember sticking my head in a drained fermenter(1000L) after fermentation and getting very dizzy in the head after only one breath my eyes stung a tiny bit too. You have to be very aware of these dangers in the industry us homebrewers dont need to worry to much I get good levels of (head) spinning after a sniff from my fermenter(20L).

i have done much the same, was using an old freezer to brew in.. open the lid and though i wanna have a whiff to see what she smells like.. i nearly passed out into the freezer.. that would have been curtains..


another situation i have seen is just peoples ignorance concerning CO2 dangers in cellars. the boss of the last pub i worked at heard a gas leak on his way down, stopped. got me (cause he is useless at anything other than changing a keg. even then almost useless) i warned him to be careful on the way down but. he took no notice.. was lucky the CO2 levels wasn't in the danger levels

 

[remi]

I force carb my kegs, and only have the gas on when serving beer. Always turn off the cyclinder and rinse the taps at the end of the evening...worth thinking about.

Remi

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

I've used my Co2 to gas rats at home before - seems a LOT more humane than than a ****** snap trap, and infinatly better than rat bait, which by all accounts kills them very slowly and painfully.

The rat in question lost consciousness in a matter of seconds and was dead after a minute or so with no visible signs of distress. Apparently this is how they euthanise lab rats.

I'm a massive wuss when it comes to animals, so I've actually decided to just live with the buggers now.

 

[wambesi]

Not good news at all. I have two kegs currently in the shared fridge and as there is no room for the gas bottle (fire ex) I simply top them up every now and then when the pour starts slowing a little. Have the SS setup as well, but it seems to leak really quick so working on that one.

Once I have the chesty done I will do the same except the bottle will be in the chest freezer and i'll simply turn on when the need to top up arises.
And when not in use all the CO2 stuff is out of reach and stored away from the kids.

 

[goomboogo]

I've used my Co2 to gas rats at home before - seems a LOT more humane than than a ****** snap trap, and infinatly better than rat bait, which by all accounts kills them very slowly and painfully.

The rat in question lost consciousness in a matter of seconds and was dead after a minute or so with no visible signs of distress. Apparently this is how they euthanise lab rats.

I'm a massive wuss when it comes to animals, so I've actually decided to just live with the buggers now.

There was a TV report this week about cane toads and it showed cane toads being put in a black plastic bag and CO2 being pumped in to euthanase them.