Batch Sparging On A Bigger System

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T.D.

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Hi all,

I have a 150L system that I do the odd batch on. Currently I fly sparge but I was thinking of going to batch sparging instead.

I think I remember reading something somewhere about batch sparging not being as effective (in terms of efficiency) on bigger systems. Does anybody know anything about this? Am I likely to get low efficiencies if batch sparging on a 150L batch size?

Cheers
 
I can't think of why there would be a difference, so long as you're scaling everything else up accordingly.
 
Why are you changing? Just curious.

Me 2
If you are getting good beer why change. Batch sparging is one of those time saving things that work well in small (home) breweries, say 20 - 60 litre lengths), I do a sort of hybrid batch sparge and even at 55 litre brew lengths my efficiency is down ,but that has nothing to do with batch sparging and a lot to do with pulling out early, as it were.

K
 
Its a long story, but basically its because my pump struggles a bit to get the sparge water up to the sparge arm. Also my efficiency has fallen a bit in recent times whci makes me wonder if there is much benefit in sticking with fly spparging. Then again, if its due to some other factor (like the crush or something) then batch sparging will only make efficiency worse again...

Also batch sparging is just more relaxed, less running around making sure there is enough water above the bed and that run off speed is right.
 
So is the general consensus here that batch sparging on a bigger system will be as effective as it is on a smaller system?
 
So is the general consensus here that batch sparging on a bigger system will be as effective as it is on a smaller system?
Firstly I'm not a batch sparger, but I think it would depend on the depth of your mash bed when doing the batch sparge on the 150 lt system as opposed to a 25-50 lt system. How do they compare? If the 150 lt system is a lot deeper then you may find it will compact and reduce flow if you run it off quickly (which I believe is a key benefit of batch sparging). If you run off at a slower pace I'd say it would be fine.

Cheers, Andrew.
 
Its a long story, but basically its because my pump struggles a bit to get the sparge water up to the sparge arm.

Try redesigning the brewery so that the HLT can run in by gravity... if that's not practical, there's always the new pump option ;)


If you run off at a slower pace I'd say it would be fine.

If you run off slower, there goes the one and only benefit of batch sparging, speed. By the time you refill, mix, recirculate a second time, etc, you may as well have been fly sparging.

I don't have much experience on larger systems, but what I love about fly-sparging on my system is the speed. I rarely have to recirculate more than about 2 litres before I get bright wort (thanks to a floating mash), and I start the kettle's heat once the base is covered completely in wort. By the time my full volume is reached, I'm often already at the boil. Not sure how that all translates to other systems, larger kettles, different heat output of burners, etc, but for me batch sparging was never really considered as an option. I imagine in a large system, flying would be much more manageable and efficient, so long as the brewery was up to it.
 
If you run off slower, there goes the one and only benefit of batch sparging, speed.
Which is pretty much what I said in the previous sentence.

I think TD was looking at batch sparging more to reduce the hassle of matching run-off speed with sparge water addition speed (since the pump was struggling) not so much to run-off faster but have a more relaxed time doing it.

Cheers, Andrew.
 
I think TD was looking at batch sparging more to reduce the hassle of matching run-off speed with sparge water addition speed (since the pump was struggling) not so much to run-off faster but have a more relaxed time doing it.

Cheers, Andrew.

Yep, precisely. The beauty about batch sparging is that I can simply fill a couple of pails with sparge water and just toss them into the mash tun, then just open the valve and I'm home and hosed. Just less stress compared to constantly monitoring flows rates (both into the kettle and the sparge arm).

PoMo, I have reconfigured the system which has brought the mash tun down lower than it used to be, which will help the pump out a bit. If it works then I will happily continue fly sparging, but I just wanted to see if it was worth considering batch sparging as an alternative.
 
I think the fly vs batch argument is akin to the "does AG make better beer than extract". Whatever suits your system and your
approach to brewing is the right answer.

There are more advantages to batch sparging than just speed though. As discussed by Denny Conn (probably the biggest
proponent of batch sparging), it is important that your lautering vessel has no channelling and you are prepared to measure the
pH of the runoff. (from here)

Lauter design is also highly important in fly sparging. Your lautering system must allow no channeling, or the sparge liquor
will drill straight down through the grain bed in only one or 2 locations and leave the rest of the mash unrinsed. Because the
buffering power of the grains in the mashtun is continually being diluted by the sparge water, its necessary to monitor the pH
of the runoff. Too high a pH will cause the extraction of tannins and polyphenols, compromising the quality of the beer. To
counteract this, it is often necessary to acidify the sparge water to keep the pH of the runoff below 6. Because the runoff may
take an hour or more, many brewers do a mashout step in an attempt to denature the enzymes and prevent further
conversion from taking place while the sparge is happening. However, this method will usually yield the highest extraction
from the grain.


I don't have experience of 150 litre batches (do 65 litre average) but I think when you add the additional volume of sparge
water to what must be a grist of approx 30kg for an average beer, mixing that water with so much grain would be difficult.

And the whole basis of batch sparging is that each addition of sparge water must be thoroughly mixed through the grain to give
a uniform gravity for each runoff (albeit that each runoff will be of a lower gravity).

I have fly sparged and now batch sparge for the following reasons -

1. Don't have to worry about how to keep an inch or two above the grain bed while sparging
2. Don't have to measure pH of the runoff when deciding when to stop sparging
3. Don't have to acidify the sparge water
4. Don't have to worry whether my lauter tun is geometrically designed to minimise channelling

All that said, if I was to do 150 litre batches I would probably fly sparge, if only to avoid mixing 30kg+ with the sparge water.

Good topic.

Cheers,
smudge
 
Yep, this is not a "batch vs fly sparging" argument - more a "does batch sparging work as well in larger batch volumes".

As you say, issues like being able to mix the sparge water through the grain well enough and being able to drain the wort off fast enough are the issues I had in mind that could make batch sparging less effective than on a smaller system.

I think at this stage I will stick with the fly sparging. Hopefully dropping the mash tun down a bit lower will make the pump handle the job better. If all else fails it might be worth giving batch sparging a go one time just to see how it goes.

Cheers.
 
T.D,

If all else doesn't fail, it would still be worth the exercise. I'd be interested in the results.

Cheers,
smudge
 
well i'll pipe up here...

im currently brewing on a 100-120L system and batch sparging and im getting some horrible efficency and i just cant work out why. Take my last recipe for example..

Simple APA
23KG's of grain.

only ended up getting 84 Litres @ 1.054 (63% eff). Dave from my brewing shop can get over 100L's out of 20KG of grain. So im using 3 more KG's and getting less!

So lets talk about my setup and sparge method's.

Mash tun is a 120L Techni ice esky with a beerbelly false bottom in it.

So for my last APA i mashed in with 65L's of water. Then added 13L's @ 100c as a mashout even though it could only raise the grain bed to about 70C not 78C like i wanted, reason i only used 13L's was cause i read on here ultimatley you want equal size batch of wort going into the kettle and i needed 100L's pre boil. so my calcs were 65L - 23L (1L/KG loss) = 42L - 5L (tun deadspace) = 37L + 13L masout = 50L's first runnings then i batch sparged with another 50L's @ 88C so it would raise the grain bed temp a bit more.

didnt help squat though and im left here still scratching my head trying to figure it all out.
 
Hi Fents, thanks for your input here, that's exactly the sort of first hand experience I was looking for. Sorry to hear you are not getting the efficiency that you are after. Maybe there is some truth to the idea that as you increase volume, batch sparging becomes less effective. Or, at least more difficult to get good results... I've certainly seen it mentioned somewhere before.

Cheers
 
Yep, this is not a "batch vs fly sparging" argument - more a "does batch sparging work as well in larger batch volumes".

As you say, issues like being able to mix the sparge water through the grain well enough and being able to drain the wort off fast enough are the issues I had in mind that could make batch sparging less effective than on a smaller system.

I think at this stage I will stick with the fly sparging. Hopefully dropping the mash tun down a bit lower will make the pump handle the job better. If all else fails it might be worth giving batch sparging a go one time just to see how it goes.

Cheers.

You have another option, which is what I call "flood sparging". Just add water with your bucket as you run off slowly. So long as there is water above the top of the grain, it'll be fine. You just have to be able to disperse the water as it's poured so it doesn't cut into the grain. For each bucket of run off, add a bucket of sparge water. That would have to be easier than recirculating, etc for that volume of mash.
 
I was going to suggest flood sparging as well, but was going to take it a step further - dependent on whether your mash tun is big enough... add all the spare water at once.

Run off till you are about to, but don't quite expose your grain bed, then (as po-mo said, being careful not to cut up the grain bed) add ALL your sparge water and continue to run off at typical fly sparge rates.

That way a layer of pure water is slowly sinking through your grainbed... doing exactly what it would do if you added it slowly
 
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