Balancing Sweetness In A Big Stout.

[Dave70]

With only four or so months left til winter, I figure It's time for a big stout.

I really like the look of this one - so I stole the recipe.

Founders Brewing Company Breakfast Stout

13.2 lbs. (6 kg) 2-row pale malt.
22 oz. (0.62 kg) flaked oats.
1.0 lb. (0.45 kg) chocolate malt (350 L) .
12 oz. (0.34 kg) roast barley malt (450 L).
9.0 oz. (0.25 kg) debittered, black malt (530 L).
7.0 oz. (0.19 kg) crystal malt (120 L).
2.0 oz. (57 g) ground Sumatran coffee.
2.0 oz. (57 g) ground Kona coffee.
2.5 oz. (71 g) dark, bittersweet bakers chocolate.
1.5 oz. (43 g) unsweetened chocolate baking nibs.
14.3 AAU Nugget pellet hops (60 min.) (1.1 oz./ 31 g of 13% alpha acid).
2.5 AAU Willamette pellet hops (30 min.) (0.5 oz./ 14 g of 5 % alpha acid).
2.5 AAU Willamette pellet hops (0 min.) (0.5 oz./ 14 g of 5 % alpha acid).
1⁄2 tsp. yeast nutrient (last 15 minutes) .
1⁄2 tsp. Irish moss (last 15 minutes .
White Labs WLP 001 (American Ale) or Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) yeast.

Now I normally prefer a sweet stout, but this recipe look's pretty good on its own and I really don't want to go screwing with it.
However, should I decide to screw it, is there a way to balance the lactose addition to predict hows sweet the final product turns out?

For example - X amount of black patent requires X amount of lactose to balance it out.

I don't make stouts normally (no, really) so I may be way off course here and trying to turn this recipe into a style which it was never intended to be, but I'd still be curious to know how we sweeten a stout without making it taste like a dessert wine.

I've also heard that sweetened stouts (or any beer containing a lot of unfermenterd sugars) don't particularly age that well - true?

cheers

 

[Sammus]

I'd use less roast before adding lactose... it hasn't really got that much roast in it anyway.

On another note, big beers are always way too sweet, I'd be tempted to mash low and replace some of the base with sugar.

Better yet, if you dont like big roasty stouts, just look for a nice porter recipe?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Stouts and Dark Ales are something I actually do well.

Three immediate things that you could do. Mash high (72-74 degrees is quite appropriate for a mash temp, though I don't push too much higher, because strike temp is getting up too close to tannin level). You will increase the amount of non-fermentable sugars, therefore the FG, therefore the beer will be sweeter. I had a Dark Ale last winter (Cherry Dark Ale - on the recipedb), where the FG was 1.020 and it was a sweetish, thick, gorgeous mouth feel Dark Ale. And only 3.9%, so you could drink a couple without falling over.

2nd is to get some Cara-grains - not the bitter variety, the sweet variety and up that, just to give some extract body and residual sweetness. Idea 1 is cheaper, but idea two has merits.

3rd is to get a yeast that attenuates less than usual. I've traditionally used Windsor Dry Yeast which is moderately attenuating, leaving high gravity, so that it doesn't eat the sugar, again leaving a sweeter beer. I find it doesn't get very ester-y, whilst still tolerating a relatively high brew temp - perfect for me living in Qld, having to brew winter beers in hot season.

Hope it helps.

Goomba

 

[Sinfathisar]

I want to do a stout this year and I have a kit recipe that I will use that includes a can of condensed milk so hopefully that will be sweet and full. Suggestions for best ferment temp would be great, brewing in Brisbane :-(
Also is stout a longer ferment than an ale? Should I get a few more beers in before the stout ties up the fermenter?

 

[Dave70]

Stouts and Dark Ales are something I actually do well.

Three immediate things that you could do. Mash high (72-74 degrees is quite appropriate for a mash temp, though I don't push too much higher, because strike temp is getting up too close to tannin level). You will increase the amount of non-fermentable sugars, therefore the FG, therefore the beer will be sweeter. I had a Dark Ale last winter (Cherry Dark Ale - on the recipedb), where the FG was 1.020 and it was a sweetish, thick, gorgeous mouth feel Dark Ale. And only 3.9%, so you could drink a couple without falling over.

2nd is to get some Cara-grains - not the bitter variety, the sweet variety and up that, just to give some extract body and residual sweetness. Idea 1 is cheaper, but idea two has merits.

3rd is to get a yeast that attenuates less than usual. I've traditionally used Windsor Dry Yeast which is moderately attenuating, leaving high gravity, so that it doesn't eat the sugar, again leaving a sweeter beer. I find it doesn't get very ester-y, whilst still tolerating a relatively high brew temp - perfect for me living in Qld, having to brew winter beers in hot season.

Hope it helps.

Goomba

Indeed it dose.
I much prefer to manipulate the brewing process itself to change flavours before I go dumping a bunch of milk sugar in my beer - kind of ironic then that I have no problem dumping coffee and chocolate in there eh?- but after digging up some tasting notes and reviews, they all seem to be gushing about this beer, so I think I might just leave well enough alone.

It seems however they age this beer in casks..so my results may vary..

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I want to do a stout this year and I have a kit recipe that I will use that includes a can of condensed milk so hopefully that will be sweet and full. Suggestions for best ferment temp would be great, brewing in Brisbane :-(
Also is stout a longer ferment than an ale? Should I get a few more beers in before the stout ties up the fermenter?

Hi there, fellow Brisvegan. The Windsor yeast (available from craftbrewer at capalaba, and probably anywhere else) is great for the weather (having a ferment temp of 17-21 degrees). I put the air con in my bedroom and leave a fermenter in the cupboard there. But generally stouts will tolerate higher temps, as the roastiness of the brew tends to hide the esters that form from higher temps. My brewing is off until the weather cools again.

As for the time taken - it'll depend on the yeast variety and ferment temp. The Windsor yeast is an ale yeast and I do all stouts and dark beers with an ale yeast, so the time take is always similar to an other ale.

As for fermenters - get down to bunnings and pick up a 25L fermenter and tap - it'll cost about $16.50 all up. Instead of an airlock, use clingwrap and the rubber band inside the lid (common practice for members of this forum) or alternatively, cling wrap, but then place the lid on top of the cling wrap and push down. You'll need slightly more cling wrap, but it will save an occasionally busted rubber band. That way you can run 2 beers concurrently. I now have 5 fermenters - one "official" and 4 from bunnings, and it makes brewing life easy, as I can rack beers and brew beers concurrently.

Finally, for kit stouts (I've made dozens) I always liked brown sugar and I purchased caramel and choc malt grains - soak these in 70 degree water for about 1/2 an hour and add to the fermenter when you put the kit in. It'll increase the stout's flavour out of sight. Oats (regular porridge, if you'd like) treated in the same way tend to increase the mouthfeel, and since it's black anyway, clarity isn't an issue.

Goomba

Hope this helps.

Goomba

 

[HoppingMad]

I reckon:

- Try the recipe as it stands.
- See how it comes up tasting it from the fermenter after primary ferment is done.
- Too sweet and tasting like desert wine? No problem. Dry hop some more willamette in secondary after it's fermented in
and you should be able to balance it out no worries.

Hopper

 

[Dave70]

I reckon:

- Try the recipe as it stands.
- See how it comes up tasting it from the fermenter after primary ferment is done.
- Too sweet and tasting like desert wine? No problem. Dry hop some more willamette in secondary after it's fermented in
and you should be able to balance it out no worries.

Hopper

That's the shot.

This beer look's like it may get a little angry, think I should split the batch up between two fermenters?

 

[HoppingMad]

That's the shot.

This beer look's like it may get a little angry, think I should split the batch up between two fermenters?

If you're in mid ferment now and it's quite vigorous I wouldn't be opening up the fermenter to split the batch, you can introduce nasties that way and spoil your brew.

If you're worried about foam coming off the top of your airlock consider adding a blow-off tube or sticking the fermenter on a deep backing tray, in a plastic tub or similar and waiting till the storm passes. Once yeast activity has finished and it's dropped to the bottom of your drum/carboy, try the beer - if it's sickly sweet or overly alcoholic in flavour add some dry hop, either to the same vessel or rack to a second sanitised vessel.

Good luck!

Hopper.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Indeed it dose.
I much prefer to manipulate the brewing process itself to change flavours before I go dumping a bunch of milk sugar in my beer - kind of ironic then that I have no problem dumping coffee and chocolate in there eh?- but after digging up some tasting notes and reviews, they all seem to be gushing about this beer, so I think I might just leave well enough alone.

It seems however they age this beer in casks..so my results may vary..

Have you thought about getting those woodchips? I noticed it at craftbrewer last time I was there, for a relatively cheap price and thought "this might work for a high grav beer, that wants aging". A bit of oak chip won't be the same as aging it in wood (unless you can spare a fermenter for it to sit in for a couple of months), but it'll add some of that character.

I did a cherry dark beer last year, which will be a repeat brew. It isn't a stout (I'll be doing an oatmeal stout as well), but it is a fantastic brown porter style beer with only a subtle bit of cherry. Duff Street Darkie. One of the best balanced beers and it seems to hit a good median between real stout drinkers and those who like dark beers, but without too much acrid bitterness.

Goomba

Goomba

 

[Dave70]

Have you thought about getting those woodchips? I noticed it at craftbrewer last time I was there, for a relatively cheap price and thought "this might work for a high grav beer, that wants aging". A bit of oak chip won't be the same as aging it in wood (unless you can spare a fermenter for it to sit in for a couple of months), but it'll add some of that character.

I did a cherry dark beer last year, which will be a repeat brew. It isn't a stout (I'll be doing an oatmeal stout as well), but it is a fantastic brown porter style beer with only a subtle bit of cherry. Duff Street Darkie. One of the best balanced beers and it seems to hit a good median between real stout drinkers and those who like dark beers, but without too much acrid bitterness.

Goomba

Goomba

That looks tasty, defiantly a beer for another day. Ive been curious about using cherry's in a wheat but I think I go with a dark first, kind of 'Black forest' style.

Ah winter, tis the season for pooing black..

 

[Sinfathisar]

Hi there, fellow Brisvegan. The Windsor yeast (available from craftbrewer at capalaba, and probably anywhere else) is great for the weather (having a ferment temp of 17-21 degrees). I put the air con in my bedroom and leave a fermenter in the cupboard there. But generally stouts will tolerate higher temps, as the roastiness of the brew tends to hide the esters that form from higher temps. My brewing is off until the weather cools again.

As for the time taken - it'll depend on the yeast variety and ferment temp. The Windsor yeast is an ale yeast and I do all stouts and dark beers with an ale yeast, so the time take is always similar to an other ale.

As for fermenters - get down to bunnings and pick up a 25L fermenter and tap - it'll cost about $16.50 all up. Instead of an airlock, use clingwrap and the rubber band inside the lid (common practice for members of this forum) or alternatively, cling wrap, but then place the lid on top of the cling wrap and push down. You'll need slightly more cling wrap, but it will save an occasionally busted rubber band. That way you can run 2 beers concurrently. I now have 5 fermenters - one "official" and 4 from bunnings, and it makes brewing life easy, as I can rack beers and brew beers concurrently.

Finally, for kit stouts (I've made dozens) I always liked brown sugar and I purchased caramel and choc malt grains - soak these in 70 degree water for about 1/2 an hour and add to the fermenter when you put the kit in. It'll increase the stout's flavour out of sight. Oats (regular porridge, if you'd like) treated in the same way tend to increase the mouthfeel, and since it's black anyway, clarity isn't an issue.

Goomba

Hope this helps.

Goomba

sure does help Goomba thanks
are the Bunnings 'fermenters' blue or clear/translucent? I know there is another thread on here that is discussing the blueness as a possible health issue
I love the sound of a cherry stout - was that done as a kit?
nearest HBS would be at brown stains for me so will check there for the yeast ta

 

[Simdop]

That looks tasty, defiantly a beer for another day. Ive been curious about using cherry's in a wheat but I think I go with a dark first, kind of 'Black forest' style.

Ah winter, tis the season for pooing black..

How did this brew end up?

 

[Dave70]

How did this brew end up?

You're asking me to recall a beer from six years ago? I cant remember what I drank six weeks ago..
But luckily I do recall this one, for the wrong reasons. I think I ratcheted up a stout recipe straight from Brewing Classic Styles, racked it to a kilo or so of smashed up frozen cherries and stood by. As was my style at the time, got impatient and bottled to soon (probably after a fortnight) and produced 22 geysers. The flavor was as you'd expect, completely underdeveloped, so I couldn't really tell you. Simply to many residual sugaz in the beer, to many yeastys not finished their job.