Autolysis- can it be saved?

[Droopy Brew]

I have what I think is autolysis. I brewed a Dunkleweizen on Saturday (which was bloody expensive and was my first double decoction so took 6.5hours) and the wort came out fantastic.

I pitched some 3068 which I had spun up over 3 days on the mixing plate, chilled, drained off the fermented wort and added 500ml of distilled water and LME to about 1.030. I didtn notice any off smells in the starter and the yeast cake had probably multiplied by 8-10 times the original.

2 days later and it was fermenting but instead of beautiful banana smells, Im getting some slightly surfactant type smells (which I put down to the idophor in my blow off vessel) but predominantly it tastes and smells of beef stock/dead yeast/vegemite.

Pretty sure I have autolysis.

So can it be saved?

Im thinking I could rack off the cake now (sitting at 1.020 so still some fermenting to be done) into secondary?

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[MHB]

If its Autolysis the sorry but NO
Just make sure it isn't phenolics thrown by the yeast before you do something irrevocable like ditching the brew.

Without very good aeration (preferably oxygenation) I would be very cautious with that 8-10 X multiplication, especially in a 500mL starter.
3068 is a great yeast one of my favourites but it can do some unexpected things, especially if it isn't very fresh. A bit of dextrose (say 5%) in the wort will favour Banana production as the yeast needs glucose to form amyl acetate, and there isn't a lot in a normal wort. I would probably do a couple of step up starters, remember that the yeast needs Nutrient (wort), Oxygen and room to live to reproduce.
To get really noticeable Autolysis in a couple of days you would need to be brewing way too hot and applying heat to the yeast cake (i.e. a plate heater) if you have one of those bin it.

Mark

 

[Droopy Brew]

Yeah what I feared. Im certain it isn't phenols. The yeast was stepped up in 1.5L of water and LME to 1.04 then chilled and wort drained off. then on the brew day I added 500ml of water and LME to rouse it and get it producing.

There was no heat issues, all temp controlled, pitched at 20C, no heat mat or anything. But I am certain it is autolysis going form the smell and taste. Maybe an extra day or 2 to see if anything subsides but it does appear to be getting stronger.

 

[MHB]

Sadly then the answer will probably be that you have a lot of very unhealthy yeast, probably need to have a long hard look at how you propagate yeast.
Personally I would rather pitch less healthy yeast than more sick yeast (better to pitch a lot of happy yeast)...
M

 

[n87]

I had this happen to me on my current brew
1.040 Schwartz~ish~beir
2 packs 34/70 rehydrated

went off like a frog in a sock
couple of days in, ate through about half of the sugars, but had a decent vegimite aroma, a little taste of it too.

I went through with it anyway, seems to have disappeared after the D rest (a week at ~16)
its now sitting at 0 for a few weeks... so will see


I think the smells and taste may have been a big part from the darker malts, and maybe the yeast, as i am unfamiliar with darker malts and this yeast.

 

[yankinoz]

I have what I think is autolysis. I brewed a Dunkleweizen on Saturday (which was bloody expensive and was my first double decoction so took 6.5hours) and the wort came out fantastic.

I pitched some 3068 which I had spun up over 3 days on the mixing plate, chilled, drained off the fermented wort and added 500ml of distilled water and LME to about 1.030. I didtn notice any off smells in the starter and the yeast cake had probably multiplied by 8-10 times the original.

2 days later and it was fermenting but instead of beautiful banana smells, Im getting some slightly surfactant type smells (which I put down to the idophor in my blow off vessel) but predominantly it tastes and smells of beef stock/dead yeast/vegemite.

Pretty sure I have autolysis.

So can it be saved?

Im thinking I could rack off the cake now (sitting at 1.020 so still some fermenting to be done) into secondary?

Any suggestions appreciated.

So long as the yeast was active, and for some time after that, autolysis is highly unlikely. Surfactant smell?

Most likely you got an infection, but that's not certain.

Be ready to bottle at the appropriate time. Taste. Though it's usually a bad idea to judge a beer too closely at that time, you may not want to waste effort and bottles on a high-risk brew. If the beer still tastes like vegemite you have hydrolysed proteins. They won't go away. Neither will burnt rubber, wombat foreskin or absolute crap. Harsh bittering or strange fruity esters will decline on ageing, to a polnt. Clove and other phenolics do not decline much on ageing and often become more noticeable as other flavours decline.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Yeah I might let it go for a bit and drop the temp. I keg so no issues with bottle washing etc.

Wombat foreskin is not a flavour that has presented itself in any of my beers yet which can only be a good thing- I think??

 

[Droopy Brew]

I had this happen to me on my current brew
1.040 Schwartz~ish~beir
2 packs 34/70 rehydrated

went off like a frog in a sock
couple of days in, ate through about half of the sugars, but had a decent vegimite aroma, a little taste of it too.

I went through with it anyway, seems to have disappeared after the D rest (a week at ~16)
its now sitting at 0 for a few weeks... so will see


I think the smells and taste may have been a big part from the darker malts, and maybe the yeast, as i am unfamiliar with darker malts and this yeast.

Mate that sounds like it could be a sulphur aroma which is a common by product of lager fermentation and does dissipate once fermentation winds up. I hope for your sake Im right.

 

[n87]

Mate that sounds like it could be a sulphur aroma which is a common by product of lager fermentation and does dissipate once fermentation winds up. I hope for your sake Im right.

So do I!

Hope yours is something silly as well. hate hearing about the lawn getting drunk...

 

[rude]

I've had autolysis once in my K&K days 2-3 weeks fermenting inside near a heater undrinkable
So when you made you're starter did you use distilled water ?

 

[Droopy Brew]

Yep distilled water.
Cant think what has caused the yeast to start committing harri karri but think it is highly likely it is what has happened.

One thing i didn't do was aerate the wort. This was deliberate as I knew I was pitching a lot of yeast and I was striving for some banana so wanted to stress it a little so not giving it much O2 seemed a good way to do this.
Could be the cause? Unlikely I think but I cant think of much else.

 

[Dan2]

First time using 3068?
Try not to judge the beer so early in fermentation.
Some yeasts can give ridiculous odours and tastes even after a week, but given time should settle/dissipate.
Let it run it's course, keg, taste, then decide if it's lawn food.

 

[Toper]

It won't be autolysis,not in that time frame,temp, and with active yeast/fermentation.Autolysis takes time to occur when the yeast dies after fermentation.Give it time .

 

[manticle]

Agree with above - if it is autolysis, it won't improve but it's unlikely to be unless something was seriously wrong with the starter.

 

[Droopy Brew]

No Dan not the first time I've used the yeast. This was harvested from an earlier Hefe batch- fantastic beer.

I will wait it out but the taste and odour is getting stronger by the day. I am not filled with hope.

 

[rude]

Why do you use distilled water it has nothing in it for yeast health or am I missing something

 

[Droopy Brew]

Yeah sorry not being specific- it was sterilised (boiled and cooled water) not DI. As mentioned DME added to bring gravity to approx 1.04.

I have now racked this off into a keg. It is at 1.022 and still fermenting. The idea is to remove from the yeast cake and let it finish off in the keg under some pressure (still at fermentation temps). This will also naturally carbonate. After a couple of weeks I will chill it and taste it.

Having tasted it again I still find vegemite but it could be a mix of heavy clove (due to over pitch) and some sulphur compounds (dark malts)- here's hoping.

 

[rude]

Ok thats what I do for starters
Last spring did a couple of hefe weiss beers fermented at 22 to get bannana never again
Too hot a ferment heaps of ethanols I think not sure but not good beers gave me a headache :huh: but wasnt vegemite
Havent tried the 3068 since but will try again back to 18c ferment for me

 

[Droopy Brew]

YEah I went at 17C for the hefe. PLety of banana and a touch of clove- good balance.

 

[Lincoln2]

Oi DB, my brother was born in Townsville. The last time I was there I got into a punch-up with some army dudes.