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ok going back to my sheets. in the meads the qualified beer judges couldn't be bothered to put down an email address to be contacted and chatted to about their 3 word answers per section. the only one who put down an address was the apprentice judge who i have no problems with. I'm happy to post and name and shame them for such a dismal effort of filling a sheet out but ill refrain.
i know this is an amateur comp but the level of feedback given is crap. as a qualified judge and currently studying to take the mead exam what i received back doesn't match the scores. my lambic has scored over 35 in multiple comps but to get a 27 thats out of place. saying its transport is kinda crap considering the were transported with the few nsw winners in category in the nationals.
i also judged nationals last year and i know i filled the sheets out as per i would any comp with the most detail i can. to get less when i couldn't travel due to work and family is just crap and to sit here and say it doesn't matter, brings me back to the point i made a few years ago when we had the newcastle debacle.we don't enter to win award but to get feed back on the beers we enter. if we get little to no info back its not worth the money we are spending to get there

saying that the wa contingent have done well and good work on a comp well run despite the lack of feed back


To be honest, with the response I'm seeing here, I wouldn't have put down my email address if I was judging, either. Don't think I'd be too happy giving up my time, and possibly paying my way to the other side of the country, just to have my work belittled and questioned by people that weren't there.

Not calling out anyone in particular, just the whole vibe of this thread seems to be quite disrespectful to the judges and organisers. If you want to encourage better feedback and organisation, you need to make a good, supportive environment for people to step up. Right now, the response seems to do nothing more than discourage people from getting involved.
 
As soon as you stop with the whole "jug" thing. :p
Wot?? You mean change a tried & tested system that's been working flawlessly for over 20 years? Yeah, right, I can see the merit in that:thumbsdown:

Perhaps you'd like Kolsch to be served in a tall, straight-sided glass, Belgian strong ales in an open Chalice, English Ordinary Bitter in a pint glass, meads in a tulip? Etc....etc...etc....yawn!

I've heard all these requests/suggestions/feedback (and MORE!!) from judges over the past 20+ years who are nothing but unmitigated wankers & think that the beer world revolves around them just 'cos they've got a BJCP badge.

Judge the beer in front of you in the plastic cup it's presented-in & use your ******* senses to evaluate it (or did you learn nothing in your BJCP learning-curve?).

Stepping-off the soap-box now. Apologies if I've pissed-off anyone with a "Badge".
 
Perhaps you'd like Kolsch to be served in a tall, straight-sided glass, Belgian strong ales in an open Chalice, English Ordinary Bitter in a pint glass, meads in a tulip? Etc....etc...etc....yawn!

I was more having a slight laugh (hopefully with you, seemingly not) about the divergent specifics that different groups might put to into a comp...

...but, seeing as we went there, one man’s goose or baby shit could be another’s horse shit...

No, I don’t think anyone has suggested specific glassware, but I do firmly believe that plastic taints the judging process. Flavour and aroma is unlikely but visual impact on clarity and colour appropriateness is not unusual. Can be avoided. Often it is not.

Jugs confused me the first time I was involved a Vicbrew comp. well before I “had a badge”. They are far more susceptible to sloppy stewarding - when we go from bottle to glass it’s obvious if a steward got a bit excited at the end of a bottle conditioned beer - in a jug we have to engage at best, assume at worst who’s fault those floaties are.

The double pour action from bottle to jug and jug to glass IS having a tangible effect on aroma and carbonation. Arguable that the final flight order may be the same - though it’s quite possible that some pleasant hop or ester compounds may be more volatile than others and therefore a more sensitive beer may not have had its chance to shine in a double pour - but even if we assume the same flight order because the jug curtailed aroma evenly, were curtailing scores as a result. That aroma focussed beer might miss out on BOS due to it “not quite getting there” against a really clean neutral beer, or a malt focussed beer.

The other item that I’ve observed out of the very efficient Vicbrew crew that shows there’s always room for improvement was the (as I recall) rather out of the blue banning of champagne bottles. I completely understand the logic, but given the correlation with “special” beers that may often be aged, it’s not fair to spring that on a cohort in season. Like 330ml bottles have been, it should be phased out over time with plenty of notice.

So on that note...Will nats in Melbourne next year be accepting champagne bottles from other states next year? If not, you’d better shout that from the roof tops (and put it visibly on the AABC website) right now. Before comp season 2018 starts.

So finally the website, Vicbrew “own” the AABC website right? Running a comp is more than just what happens on the day. There have been multiple offers of skill from other groups to help with modernising the website, working with developers to get the AABC style guidelines available in app on phone. Initially these were ignored. Then (maybe two years later?) they were accepted with no follow through. For my part, those offers are now expired through changing life and exhaustion of head/brick wall blends.

At this point in time, the style guideline links still point to someone’s C drive, as they have all year.

VicBrew runs a tight comp, but like you say, this is an amateur comp. Done by volunteers in their spare time. That’s my whole point.

There’s always room for improvement and sometimes that’s out of reasonable reach. There is an argument that vic’s lead and experience would place them well to “just own it”. But as MHB says there’s arguments against too.

A new reason, just exposed today is that if you guys come in with a belligerent “we know what we’re doing coz we’re pros, cram your suggestions you don’t know which way is up”
you will alienate all other states. If it did happen, we would expect that pro claim to flow through to all aspects of the comp. That doesn’t exist now. You won’t get national buy in with this attitude.

I’m looking forward to the comp in Melbourne next year. You guys know how to make it roll on the day, and that’s in a large way down to your chief stewarding, Martin.

I’m also Looking forward to reps from other states coming down and seeing what they can take home for when they might run nats in 2019.
 
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Just want to acknowledge your response right now. Thank you. A bit too much to respond-to after too-little sleep & a few too-many beers...."seeingstars:
 
Hey guys. Loosen the ****-up!!

The solution to all your bleating/problems is dead simple: Leave it to the Vicbrew committee in future.

We know what we're doing & why/how. A group of hard-core homebrewing nutters with well over 100 years of brewing experience between us. Multiple BJCP qualified members (I'm not one. 'Can't be arsed getting the qualification, despite judging all the way back to 1985. I'm "just" Chief Steward), so the knowledge is there.

Vicbrew is probably the slickest-run competition in the country & whenever we do the Nationals/ANHC as well as Vicbrew in the same year, it's smoother than baby-poo. All run by the same core of operators. Can anyone else say the same thing?

We have fun (anyone who's seen me do multiple T-shirt changes, then question the sobriety of the judges when they notice it will know:p)

It's an amateur brewing competition, right?

Did someone suddenly delete "FUN" & "BEER" from the agenda??????

If Vicbrew do run "fantastic comps" then why when I asked for a Hand over from previous years from the AABA/AABC I was provided with Literally nothing and don't get me started on www.AABC.org.au.


I see Three options for the Future

1. VICBREW loosens its grip on this competition and a new AABA type Committee is formed with sole ownership of this competition and no clubs are involved only people. We are large enough now for Australia to have an actual committee and not just a small group of people who have never been voted into these potions.

2. Another competition is started and AABA Delegates move on, everyone myself included.

3. More Volunteers

Also my personal opinion is that AABC guidelines are scrapped and we default to BJCP. I suggest we can also communicate with the BJCP to have the addition of Australian Styles to the BJCP guidelines


At the end of the day thanks to everyone that has helped/Volunteered their time for this comp you know who you are.
 
Just want to acknowledge your response right now. Thank you. A bit too much to respond-to after too-little sleep & a few too-many beers...."seeingstars:

Cheers.

Happy to continue over PM if you think best. We are both after the same end game.
 
To be honest, with the response I'm seeing here, I wouldn't have put down my email address if I was judging, either. Don't think I'd be too happy giving up my time, and possibly paying my way to the other side of the country, just to have my work belittled and questioned by people that weren't there.

Not calling out anyone in particular, just the whole vibe of this thread seems to be quite disrespectful to the judges and organisers. If you want to encourage better feedback and organisation, you need to make a good, supportive environment for people to step up. Right now, the response seems to do nothing more than discourage people from getting involved.
the sheets i got back are very basic and after having another judge look at them he agrees with me there is nothing on them to mark how they came up with the scores as everything they marked down on the lambic makes it a 50 point beer.
i was involved in the judging at state level and if it had of been closer and me not having so little leave/ money i probably would of been there.
ill be at the nationals next year hopefully as one of australis few mead qualified judges.
for the record i always put down my email address as i wan people to contact me and ask questions.
 
Also my personal opinion is that AABC guidelines are scrapped and we default to BJCP. I suggest we can also communicate with the BJCP to have the addition of Australian Styles to the BJCP guidelines

Sean, my man. Well said. I just reread this after a few hours to digest and take a deep breath. You are 100% right.

We have a cohort of 'comp make go now' guys that I respect no end. Many/most are VicBrew. They helped build AABC. I suspect they laid a foundation for ANHC. They are the only reason we have any BJCP certification now...but let's move with the times.

My last post was pretty huffity puffity (that's pleasant day care dad code for '****'.)

...ps...I'm a childless, relatively young man, and I've never used the term "huffity puffity" before until being bolschy here on AHB, but my posts, in retrospect seem more Oscar the Grouch than Hoots the Owl, so let's clear it up...I am after mad end game - a functional, semi-professional 'amateur' brewing comp...so if making old man statements like 'huffitiy puffity’ are the key, then count me in. If not, just read everything I am trying to say.

I had the amazing honour of winning national champ through the skilled randomness of an AABC comp a few years back. I know I brewed many fantastic beers, but so did a gang of others, it's just the comp sheets went my way, The following year I kinda quit but entered some "last year beers" (some in champagne bottles) and still wowed the random, lucky chance cacophany of judges to a very firm place. Cool. Exciting. The system works. Except judging IS a crapshoot. We need to work on everything EXCEPT the beer to minimise that...

The lack of numbers volunteering or travelling means you won't get good feedback, three judges, or much else. Every interstater that can't or won't get to nats will be replaced with, at best a new homebrewer who's been getting into judging , at worst some bar owner/journo/strip club owner who has that one craft beer/ twat who is 'mister beer in their sphere'. Hopefully the compromise is two judges....maybe....

Sometimes you might get a fair hearing. Sometimes, that IPA you make is just what they're after. Other times, your madonna lily saison (basically a saison...but you want it to be purchased and left in the dark corner of every house in Australia to ultimate neglect) ....not cutting it. Is it the beer or judge calibre? Who knows.

Sooooo back to one of Sean's most important suggestions...the 'get the **** over it' factor required for the AABC guidelines'...I think BJCP should recognise a little bit more of our antipodean contribution.. but the presence of sparkling ale is a step in the right direction. Our own AABC would have worked if we'd properly executed style guidelines..but we didn't ...so we shouldn't. Let's focus on getting the right emergent styles on with the (Detailed) BJCP instead.

Don't agree? AABC Light Aussie Lager's style G's are 135 words. Australian Premium Lager is 115.A cal common is 315 words. An APA is 390. It's so hard to judge these "back of a hankie" style guidelines, so let's work as a group to get some pros here helping to get our unique styles into the BJCP!

All these uniquely Australian lagers (sparkling is now BJCP certified) do deserve recognition, but the manner in which they have been recognised to date is a less than appropriate approach.

Sean is right. All of the old school need to step back (and maybe re-volunteer - because we know this scene lives and dies on the minority) but it's UNDENIABLE that a fresh blood is required for standards and execution when it comes to AABC comps. Please.
 
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I don't think any of our other local styles are about to be incorporated into the BJCP any time soon. But have you noticed the appendix at the end of the guidelines with other local styles? (Argentinian and Italian styles) does anyone know - hypothetically - what it would take to have our other beers not covered by BJCP added in there?
 
I don't think any of our other local styles are about to be incorporated into the BJCP any time soon. But have you noticed the appendix at the end of the guidelines with other local styles? (Argentinian and Italian styles) does anyone know - hypothetically - what it would take to have our other beers not covered by BJCP added in there?

That's probably the way to go. Even if BJCP don't get on board, just make the AABC guidelines a facsimile of the BJCP ones, with addendums for the Aussie specific styles. That way everyone can work towards the same standard, for all styles, except the specific ones we want to do.
 
So finally the website, Vicbrew “own” the AABC website right? Running a comp is more than just what happens on the day. There have been multiple offers of skill from other groups to help with modernising the website, working with developers to get the AABC style guidelines available in app on phone. Initially these were ignored. Then (maybe two years later?) they were accepted with no follow through. For my part, those offers are now expired through changing life and exhaustion of head/brick wall blends.

As a fellow Victorian and homebrewer, I am ashamed of the Vicbrew and AABC websites... Surely amongst all the volunteers that help out, we can scrounge up enough talent to do better than this. (Yes, I will volunteer if wanted)
 
Sean is right. All of the old school need to step back (and maybe re-volunteer - because we know this scene lives and dies on the minority) but it's UNDENIABLE that a fresh blood is required for standards and execution when it comes to AABC comps. Please.

I fully agree that there is always room for improvements and also that new blood is essential for this thing to continue into the future in a healthy fashion. However if the ‘old guard’ stepped back who who would actually do the work and run the comps?

(I am not one of the ‘old guard’ by the way).

Another issue that I see is there is very little redundancy in terms of the number of people who know how to run these big comps. All it would take is a couple of select people (in Vic at least) to be hit by the proverbial bus and that would be it.
 
This has gotten quite feisty. My two cents prior to unwatching this thead.

As an entrant who wasn't involved in running the comp itself, yes, I wish I'd gotten a bit more direct feedback on my beer.

However, as many have pointed out, 40 beers to be judged, it's hard work on the day, there's lots to do, so I'm not very worried about it and am happy knowing that I had a beer good enough to make it to AABC. Kudos to all who put effort in to make the comps happen.

One upshot of all the discussion here is that I'll definitely be making the time to get involved in QABC next year in the organisation and data side of things, and trying to make sure my club (TooSOBA) also gets a rep on the committee to assist as well.
 
I guess the main question is what is the purpose of the national comp (or any, for that matter). If it's just to recognize the winners, I'm ok with that, but let's just pronounce it out loud, and good luck looking for entries.

Another purpose might be to tick the box against the question like "is there active homebrewers association in Australia?". So, ok, there is, comps are conducted, box ticked.

People wrote here in the thread, like, "if you disrespect us judges we won't do it anymore, and there wouldn't be a next comp". Well, my personal experience from this comp is that spent $50 on entry&shipping and got no feedback. If there was no comp, I'd have been $50 better of.

So here's my point: if the purpose of the national comp is officially one of the two above, I'm gonna ignore it next year and stop at the state level even if I qualify (I did it last two years so hopefully I'm doing something right in addition to just being lucky). I may be unique with my motivations, but I participate in the comps to get feedback (however brutal) and become a better brewer.

I mean, if it's expected that judges are going to be overworked and not be able to provide a decent feedback, maybe it is better to call it of, or give people a heads-up?
 
I fully agree that there is always room for improvements and also that new blood is essential for this thing to continue into the future in a healthy fashion. However if the ‘old guard’ stepped back who who would actually do the work and run the comps?

(I am not one of the ‘old guard’ by the way).

Another issue that I see is there is very little redundancy in terms of the number of people who know how to run these big comps. All it would take is a couple of select people (in Vic at least) to be hit by the proverbial bus and that would be it.

Yep, you are right. I was hinting that way above but maybe I wasn’t clear. To be a little clearer, I am not saying that everyone who’s worked on AABC need to step back and go away. Not at all.

I am saying they need to step back and let a truly national organisation form and let the people who have big ideas run with them. They could, should and will hopefully be willing to contribute to this.
 
I guess the main question is what is the purpose of the national comp (or any, for that matter). If it's just to recognize the winners, I'm ok with that, but let's just pronounce it out loud, and good luck looking for entries.

Another purpose might be to tick the box against the question like "is there active homebrewers association in Australia?". So, ok, there is, comps are conducted, box ticked.

People wrote here in the thread, like, "if you disrespect us judges we won't do it anymore, and there wouldn't be a next comp". Well, my personal experience from this comp is that spent $50 on entry&shipping and got no feedback. If there was no comp, I'd have been $50 better of.

So here's my point: if the purpose of the national comp is officially one of the two above, I'm gonna ignore it next year and stop at the state level even if I qualify (I did it last two years so hopefully I'm doing something right in addition to just being lucky). I may be unique with my motivations, but I participate in the comps to get feedback (however brutal) and become a better brewer.

I mean, if it's expected that judges are going to be overworked and not be able to provide a decent feedback, maybe it is better to call it of, or give people a heads-up?

Hi Codehopper,

My advice to all comps was to collate all entries into one shipment and have the state comp sort out the shipping cost rather than charge individuals (WA, QLD, ACT and SA) I am not to sure where you are located so I am not to sure how much that would save you. As you know the State Competitions feed into the Nationals and as we are a large country it is beneficial for the State comps the ship all beers together from a cost and quality standpoint.

There has been some talk/meetings in the area of an Official National "Homebrewers association in Australia" it will require an extensive amount of work from a lot of people across the country I believe this is the best option to move forward in Australia.

To comment on the score sheet discussion, we had 32 Judges (Normal Nats is 60) with all tables assigned an experienced judge. Judges where provided the Beer Checklist scoresheet along with the checklist instructions and the beer faults troubleshooter, as this was the second Competition in the series and we were down on judge numbers I decided that this was required for us to complete the judging within the allotted time. I can only thank the Judges,Stewards and Staff for the enormous time and effort that was put in to have this all completed on the same day.
In hindsight there are plenty of things I would have done differently.

I also agree with Kevin
I am not saying that everyone who’s worked on AABC need to step back and go away. Not at all.

I am saying they need to step back and let a truly national organisation form and let the people who have big ideas run with them. They could, should and will hopefully be willing to contribute to this.
 
The AABC FB page indicates that placed entries will be contacted soon via email, I've not received anything yet,has anyone been contacted?
 
I think what we can takeaway from this is that the organisers of future AABC's need to start planning much earlier and ensure that the comp is properly resourced in the future. (ie more judges with at least one BJCP qualified judge per table, & give them more time on each beer so the feedback is quality). Otherwise the whole thing verges on being pointless. And yes, please adopt the BJCP so we all are on the same page.
 
Stick your hand up to be involved to evoke the changes required...
Happy to, however it'll be best being driven by some of the better resourced clubs (like the one I'm in).
 
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