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mateostojic

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Gents,

Im trying to get an idea of what wait staff and bar staff make these days.
I used to make $15 when i poured beers, while studying in Sydney, back in 2007, and i wanna know how much this has changed.
Im living in Perth, but i assume that the pay rate will be relatively similar over east.
FairWork Australia specifies the minimum wage for a " Grade 2 food and beverage attendant" as $16.57, but the market rate is surely more than this.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Mate
 

Midnight Brew

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I think the ball park figure is around $18 for part/full time staff and $20 for casual based on age being over 21 years old. Depending on which award they fall under, they may also be entitled to penality rates on Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays.

As you said the minium wage is $16.57 but I agree you would usually get more then this.
 

ekul

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Its that amount plus a loading so the boss don't have to pay you overtime on saturdays and sundays. Great if you only work during the week, not so great if you work on weekends. And there's another loading for being casual i think. This is in qld


Gents,

Im trying to get an idea of what wait staff and bar staff make these days.
I used to make $15 when i poured beers, while studying in Sydney, back in 2007, and i wanna know how much this has changed.
Im living in Perth, but i assume that the pay rate will be relatively similar over east.
FairWork Australia specifies the minimum wage for a " Grade 2 food and beverage attendant" as $16.57, but the market rate is surely more than this.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Mate
 

fawnroux

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Honestly depends on where you work.

Like all markets, some pay really well, some shitefull. The $16.57 is the base rate, before loading, so add your 20-25% for Mon-Fri, 50% for Sat then 75% for Sun. The loadings are probably a bit smaller than that, because they are slowly getting fazed out. But that's if your casual, which a large amount of hospitality work is. Also, if the business is new, they don't have to pay as much on the weekends, with the loadings slowly increasing over 5 years. Shit has got real confusing over the last few years. If you deal with large established companies, say for instance ALH, it will all be award rates to the T. Any 'hotel' worth the salt will be working under the hotels award. However, when going to bars and restaurants, things can get less professional. That's not to say bars and restaurants are dodgy, just that when people ARE dodgy, my experience it's in these areas they operate.

Long story short, everywhere is different. Casual work will get you around $22-25 an hour. That's a basic ball park. Some pay worse, some pay better. To get an idea, if you know which city you are going to, get on seek or MyCareer and look at jobs. Many will state the pay. Do your research and know the market rates for the city. Also might be good to know what type of tips you might earn in the right place.

Dave
 

mateostojic

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Good point, the $16.57 is for permanent, while casual is 25% more.
I also found the penalty rates which bump the hourly wage a fair bit.

------------------------------Mon - Fri----Saturday---Sunday----Public Holiday
Full time/Part time----------16.57------- 20.7 -------29----------41.4
Casual----------------------- 20.71-------24.8--------29----------45.5




Mate
 

fawnroux

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Oh, and many might pay an 'above award' rate as a flat rate all week. The idea is they have fixed costs and it should work out even/better for you. Whether it does or not is another story
 

mateostojic

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Thanks Dave,

I didnt know that new businesses get a gradual introduction of weekend loadings. I will research this a bit further.
I jumped on the online job sites, as well as gumtree ads, but found that the employers dont give away the hourly rate, unless its fairly high and in which case you are applying for a job as a topless waitress :p


Thanks for the informative reply
Mate




Honestly depends on where you work.

Like all markets, some pay really well, some shitefull. The $16.57 is the base rate, before loading, so add your 20-25% for Mon-Fri, 50% for Sat then 75% for Sun. The loadings are probably a bit smaller than that, because they are slowly getting fazed out. But that's if your casual, which a large amount of hospitality work is. Also, if the business is new, they don't have to pay as much on the weekends, with the loadings slowly increasing over 5 years. Shit has got real confusing over the last few years. If you deal with large established companies, say for instance ALH, it will all be award rates to the T. Any 'hotel' worth the salt will be working under the hotels award. However, when going to bars and restaurants, things can get less professional. That's not to say bars and restaurants are dodgy, just that when people ARE dodgy, my experience it's in these areas they operate.

Long story short, everywhere is different. Casual work will get you around $22-25 an hour. That's a basic ball park. Some pay worse, some pay better. To get an idea, if you know which city you are going to, get on seek or MyCareer and look at jobs. Many will state the pay. Do your research and know the market rates for the city. Also might be good to know what type of tips you might earn in the right place.

Dave
 

ekul

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Hardly any places pay weekend penalties anymore. They pay 'above award' as a flat rate so they don't have to pay penalty rates on the weekends, works out better for the employer as bars are going to be their busiest on the weekend when more staff are required. Above award rates has been a bit under $20 in my experience. Some places i've worked in even keep the tips!!
 

mateostojic

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Hardly any places pay weekend penalties anymore. They pay 'above award' as a flat rate so they don't have to pay penalty rates on the weekends, works out better for the employer as bars are going to be their busiest on the weekend when more staff are required. Above award rates has been a bit under $20 in my experience. Some places i've worked in even keep the tips!!
Hi Ekul

Is this concept of paying 'above award' and not paying penalty rates on weekends legal or is this under the table? How much higher does the flat rate have to be to avoid paying weekend and public holiday loading?
My understanding of FairWork Australia's minimum wage system is that you legaly must pay 25% loading on Saturday, 75% loading on Sunday and 150% loading on public holidays.

FairWork Australia link to loading table



Mate
 

fawnroux

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Is this concept of paying 'above award' and not paying penalty rates on weekends legal or is this under the table? How much higher does the flat rate have to be to avoid paying weekend and public holiday loading?
My understanding of FairWork Australia's minimum wage system is that you legaly must pay 25% loading on Saturday, 75% loading on Sunday and 150% loading on public holidays.

FairWork Australia link to loading table
It is legit, yes. A business can whatever it wants above award rates, but your end of week pay must pass a 'no disadvantage' test. For example, if your casual, and should be getting say, for instance, $21.50 during the week, $26 on Saturday and $29 Sunday, then they can pay a flat of say, $25 and depending what hours you work and when, your pay should equal or be higher than what you would get on the exact awards. In reality, it doesn't always work like this, especially if you work only Friday and Saturday. But it can work out better.

The reality is yes, hospitality has to pay what legally it supposed to. However, being that the majority are small businesses and is largely unregulated by the industrial umpire. There are a lot of good, honest decent employers out there trying to make a go of it. Unfortunately it is a dog of an industry with little to no profit for many. If you want 100% award payments with casual loadings, after 7pm loadings, laundry allowence etc, try and find a job in a large hotel (Marriot, Hilton etc). There is also ALH pubs (Woolworths) which will do the same.

Most people in this industry are good people. Work out whether you like working in a place, what perks you get etc. You might get paid at, or below awards, but maybe you gt a meal and a knock off every shift? Things like that can make it work better, y'know. Just know what you should be getting and go wiith it.

Where are you thinking of moving to? I can try and find out some market rates if you'd like.
 

fawnroux

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Sorry, just remembered you said Perth.

I'll see what I can find out.
 

sponge

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It would also depend upon where you worked and how they paid people.

I used to work behind the bar at a function centre and everyone got $15/hr cash in hand.

Pretty dodgy, I know, but thats just what was done there. Everyone working was pretty much a uni student and just needed the cash.

Not muchy in the way of penalty rates either, except on the New Years function when it went to maybe $25/hr.

Real stingey stuff...


Sponge
 

fawnroux

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Alright, quick looky and I found the following, should give you an idea of what is being paid in Perth. Good to remember too that Perth is going gangbusters still, all those thirsty miners and all :icon_cheers:

Belgian Beer Cafe (ALH) - $20-25
Seasons of Perth - $15-25 (PT or casual)
Ibis Hotel - $21.71 + penelties
Mundaring Hotel - $20-25
Beluga Claremont - $20-25
Queens Tavern (ALH) - $20-26.50
The Lucky Shag - $20-25
Cocos Perth - $23-30
 

mateostojic

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Alright, quick looky and I found the following, should give you an idea of what is being paid in Perth. Good to remember too that Perth is going gangbusters still, all those thirsty miners and all :icon_cheers:

Belgian Beer Cafe (ALH) - $20-25
Seasons of Perth - $15-25 (PT or casual)
Ibis Hotel - $21.71 + penelties
Mundaring Hotel - $20-25
Beluga Claremont - $20-25
Queens Tavern (ALH) - $20-26.50
The Lucky Shag - $20-25
Cocos Perth - $23-30

Thanks Dave,
I am now having a look at the enterprise agreements and "better off overall test" from FairWork Australia and i can see how they have a legit flat rate.
Btw, how did you get the above rates? Is this through contacts in the industry or is this something available to the public?


Cheers,
Mate
 

fawnroux

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Nah, just found them on seek.

There are a couple of industry awards, but most of them are similar. When the government changed it all in 2010, they stream lined a lot of things. But what your looking for would be something like this

Hospitality (General) Industry Award 2010

Section 7 - Award flexibility


7.1 Notwithstanding any other provision of this award, an employer and an individual employee may agree to vary the application of certain terms of this award to meet the genuine individual needs of the employer and the individual employee. The terms the employer and the individual employee may agree to vary the application of are those concerning:

(a) arrangements for when work is performed;
(b overtime rates;
penalty rates;
(d) allowances; and
(e) leave loading.

7.2 The employer and the individual employee must have genuinely made the agreement without coercion or duress.

7.3 The agreement between the employer and the individual employee must:
(a) be confined to a variation in the application of one or more of the terms listed in clause 7.1; and
(b not disadvantage the individual employee in relation to the individual employees terms and conditions of employment.

7.4 For the purposes of clause 7.3(b the agreement will be taken not to disadvantage the individual employee in relation to the individual employees terms and conditions of employment if:

(a) the agreement does not result, on balance, in a reduction in the overall terms and conditions of employment of the individual employee under this award and any applicable agreement made under the Act, as those instruments applied as at the date the agreement commences to operate; and
(b the agreement does not result in a reduction in the terms and conditions of employment of the individual employee under any other relevant laws of the Commonwealth or any relevant laws of a State or Territory.


7.5 The agreement between the employer and the individual employee must also:

(a) be in writing, name the parties to the agreement and be signed by the employer and the individual employee and, if the employee is under 18 years of age, the employees parent or guardian;
(b state each term of this award that the employer and the individual employee have agreed to vary;
detail how the application of each term has been varied by agreement between the employer and the individual employee;
(d) detail how the agreement does not disadvantage the individual employee in relation to the individual employees terms and conditions of employment; and
(e) state the date the agreement commences to operate.

7.6 The employer must give the individual employee a copy of the agreement and keep the agreement as a time and wages record.

7.7 An employer seeking to enter into an agreement must provide a written proposal to the employee. Where the employees understanding of written English is limited the employer must take measures, including translation into an appropriate language, to ensure that the employee understands the proposal.

7.8 The agreement may be terminated:

(a) by the employer or the individual employee giving four weeks notice of termination, in writing, to the other party and the agreement ceasing to operate at the end of the notice period; or
(b at any time, by written agreement between the employer and the individual employee.

7.9 The right to make an agreement pursuant to this clause is in addition to, and is not intended to otherwise affect, any provision for an agreement between an employer and an individual employee contained in any other term of this award.


Hope this helps.
 

Camo1234

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Gents, good luck getting a straight answer on this question... The issue you are facing is called the "Modern Award" that the bloody ginger running this country has introduced. In around 3 years from now all places will need to be on the modern award... at the moment some are already on the modern award (= bloody rediculous wages) and others are "stepping towards" the modern award....(that was what some one was refering to above by "stepping up over five years").

I deal with this in my job and we have had lawyers trying to figure out this whole mess for 18 months and even the fair work ombudsman doesn't really understand how to interpret the modern award.

You will find that some places pay completely different to other places even when they are both in the same industry, thats because they are either on the modern award or stepping towards it.

Extra pay for workers sounds great but in a struggling retail environment that we are in, the vast majority of business owners simply can not afford to pay the modern award and just watch the amount of small business that go out of business over the next few years and the service in the ones still surviving go to shit because they can't afford to put alot of people on the weekends because of penalty rates. Workers will get paid more but they will pay more for everything!

Sorry.. rant over :ph34r:
 

fawnroux

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I deal with this in my job and we have had lawyers trying to figure out this whole mess for 18 months and even the fair work ombudsman doesn't really understand how to interpret the modern award.
Yep, true that. We had someone from FWA last year say something along the lines of "mate, I've been doing this for years, and I can't work any of it out"

*sigh*
 

super_simian

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Excuse me if I don't take on-board political discourse from someone who can't even spell ridiculous!
 

ekul

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The last three places i've worked have paid 'above award' rate/no penalty rates, and i wasn't getting anywhere near $25! The aboslute minimum 'above award' rate is $19.16 an hour. On christmas day i got time and a half, not cause we were entitled to it but because the boss was a good guy and felt sorry for us. Onchristmass day you can legally be paid less that $20 an hour!

I think most places pay the above award rate because it should owrk out cheaper for them. During the week a small place might only need a couple staff, but on the weekends (when penalty rates used to apply) they might need triple the staff, and if they're paying time and a half this would get exxy. If they're paying them 10% extra (or whatever above award is) all the time its much cheaper. The only places that i know that pay penalty rates are places that don't need staff on the weekend, or need very few staff so its better off for them to be paying their staff penalty rates.

When you get new staff you can can get them to sign a form that says that they agree that they can be terminated the same day, no four weeks. Staff can also sign away other allowances, i;ve done it the last few places i've worked. Its meant to be an agreement, but if you don't sign you don't get the job. ONe place had a provision that i wouldn't talk shit about it, that sent up red flags. I quit 4 weeks later.

The danger of paying the abosoute minimum with minimum 'rights' means that the staff will get the same rate (or better) anywhere else. If they've signed a contract saying they can be terminated at any point (which is common in my experience) they can also leave the same day. So if the wages are the minimum and the environment is shitty, that business is going to be spending a lot of money training new staff. ONe place i worked at advertised in the paper every week, because they never knew when staff were going to quit.

edit- i just remembered something else. IN all the agreements i've signed, the ones that have shitty wages always have a line that says my normal working hours are mon to fri 9-5, but i 'volunteer' for any additional shifts to be paid at the normal rate. Maybe thats how they get around it?

Mateosjestic, are you starting a business or are you trying to work out if you're being paid the right amount?
 

mateostojic

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Thanks for the info ekul.

Yeah i am putting together a business plan for opening a small bar and i am just trying to price up the labour.
I agree that it would be more beneficial to pay a bit more and keep quality staff.

I put some numbers down to compare the difference between paying award rates and market rates.

Assumptions:
An average of 8-9 kitchen and bar staff (depending on day and time of day),
The bar opening hours are 11:30am - midnight

If the employer is paying $21 weekdays and $26 weekends, the saving is approx $900 per week in labour costs
If the employer is paying $21 flat, the saving is approx $2500 per week in labour costs.

I am still working on the figures but i can post them up once finished, if you are interested.

Mate
 

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