Any Advice For Mashing/recipe Of A Lager?

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BjornJ

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Hi all,
my first try at a lager wasn't all that successful, so want try keep things nice and simple for this one to see if I can improve.

Thinking

3 kg of Pilsner malt
1 kg of base malt
0.4 kg of cane sugar


(already ordered the grains)

Then Pride of Ringwood @60 for about 20 IBU, and possibly a dash of Hallertauer at 20 min for a hint of freshness.

This will give me OG 1.041, and I have also ordered the German Lager yeast WLP830.




After some advice from Thirstyboy I think I will use just normal cane sugar, rather than dextrose.


Does this sound like a good idea for a lager recipe?

1:
Thinking I should add 100 gr of Crystal late in the boil (say 20 min before mash out) to add some "specialty grain goodies" late in the mash to not loose any dextrins or what-not from mashing the specialty grains, this should not be enough to make it a too dark beer.

2:
Should I increase the sugar to 20 % rather than 10% like it is now? I understand this will make it more "shop beer" wise when considering how malty the beer will be (Thinking all malt beer vs "normal" beer which usually is a bit thinner)

Mashing at 64 degrees for an hour before mashing out at 76, I think.

Been (as usual) reading some conflicting stuff about mash time.
Read on byo.com that the mash time could easily be shortened to 20-40 min as the malt today are so highly modified. That the 60-90 min mash may actually hurt the beer quality as some of the proteins are lost. The same reason was given for why a protein rest with normal highly modified malts can actually damage the beer profile.

But then I read about Budweiser being mashed for 3 hours... And had a Pure blonde midstrength the other day (nice and fresh, I like it) that on the label says it is brewed using an extended mashing time. That again sounds like by mashing for a long time, I would get a highly fermentable wort.

3:
So short or long mash?
I am hoping to get a lower FG than what I normally get, hence my pondering of mash temp, mash time and using sugar :D


I often end at 1.010 - 1.012 on both Ale and the same thing happened with my only lager so far, even though I mashed at 65-64 degrees.




The more I read, the more conflicting stuff I find!
:)


thanks
Bjorn
 
Hi Bjorn,

What didn't you like about your first beer?

I think you're right using sugar instead of dextrose. I'd put it in the boil though.

The recipe looks alright as it is i reckon. If you want to add the crystal, go for it, but if it were me, i'd chuck some munich or something else in.

I wouldn't increase the sugar, i think 20% is too much, but that's just me.
Plus, this won't thin the beer out, it'll just add to the alcohol. This is unless you're removing malt from the recipe and replacing it with the sugar.

As for the mashing. Cooler mashing temps take longer to convert than warmer ones. If you're mashing at 64C I'd stick to the 1hr mark. The time is also dependant on mash pH. I wouldn't reduce the time significantly without doing an iodine test. Still leave it a bit once the iodine test shows conversion.

To get the lower FG you're after, i'd be mashing low as you are (could consider going 63) and treating your yeast well.
What size starter are you using? make sure it's a decent size.
Airate your wort
Use yeast nutrient.
raise the temp a couple of degrees towards the end of the ferment.

My last lager finished at 1007, but that's to be expected with the below grain bill.
3.7kg Galaxy
1kg rice

Cheers,
Al
 
My best lagers have been either 100% pils malt , or with a small amount of carapils.

You need enough yeast, twice that of ales at least. Use a suitable calculator (ie Mrmalty.com) to work out your starter size based on the wort volume, OG and yeast age. Something in the order of 2L for a 20+ L brew.

You could use some sugar (cane or dex) if you want a higher ABV, I would keep it < 10%.

Ferment low (8-10C) for 2 weeks, check SG... then bring it up to 18C for 2 days approx. Rack and crash chill for as long as you can.
 
Carapils is an excellent suggestion, I usually use 330 g - so I get three batches out of a kilo. Scientific, hey :p Also I'd definitely do at least a 90 min mash. Some Pilsener malt batches come out so pale the finished beer looks like soda water, some Crystal would be fine, I often add around 80g which would give you more of a Tooheys New colour.

Also try 500g of normal supermarket rice boiled to a mush and added to the mash, and cut down a tad on the sugar. Gives a nice smoothness. What yeast? For an Aus style I reckon you can't go past S-189 for a dried yeast, but for a liquid yeast Wyeast Danish is a cracker. Rumoured that Carlton Yeasts originally came from Copenhagen, sounds plausible.

:icon_cheers:
 
thanks guys!

Bottled the "breakfast of Champions" I had in the fridge today, as well as picked up the grains and yeast for this one. So no way back now :D


Started building up a starter earlier today, aiming for 1,5 - 2 litres from a vial of WLP830.

Decided to buy a small bag of cracked crystal (200 gr) when in Dave's homebrew, so will toy with the idea of adding maybe 100 gr of that.

My first lager was a "rice lager" with low bittering and 1 kg of flaked rice (plus 4 kg of grain). It came out VERY light in color which was ok, but it has a sour-like flavor to it. Not sure what it is, but it's not very nice. And the FG was 1.010 or 1.012, hoping to go below 1.010 on this one.

Will probably stick with the 10% sugar, will see how it goes tomorrow.
May have time to brew in the morning, before heading in to the city.

thanks
Bjorn
 
tasted this beer after about 8 days in the fermenter, smelled foul!

But maybe that's normal with lager yeast?

FG so far was 1.010, hoping it will go a little lower still.

Still pondering this "short mash is good for proteins and what-not" vs. "long mash is good for higher fermentability" dilemma..

thanks
Bjorn
 
tasted this beer after about 8 days in the fermenter, smelled foul!

But maybe that's normal with lager yeast?

FG so far was 1.010, hoping it will go a little lower still.

Still pondering this "short mash is good for proteins and what-not" vs. "long mash is good for higher fermentability" dilemma..

thanks
Bjorn

Sulphury?
 
Eeeh, not sure?
I smelled the hydrometer tube, it smelled bad. I tasted it, and couldn't really taste anything wrong.
Smelled it again, a friend was there and smelled it as well, also complaining about the smell.

Sulphury, maybe, not quite sure. I think you are right, the brew fridge has been smelling rotten or "funny" all week.

thanks
Bjorn
 
Sulphury?

I brew a lot of pilsners and lagers as that's what the wife likes ... she also likes English ales and American pale ales ... in fact the only beers she doesn't like are wheaties and Belgians ... but anyway ... as I was saying ... all my pils and lagers have a slight sulphur aroma during fermentation and even when being kegged ... which needs time to balance out with the malt and hops ... that's why they are called lagers ... they need time to 'lager' (said with the Austin Power's quotation marks).

So if it tastes okay get it kegged or bottled and into the fridge at about 2-3C for a couple of weeks (a couple of months is even better if you can wait that long).

:icon_cheers: ghhb
 
I brew a lot of pilsners and lagers as that's what the wife likes ... she also likes English ales and American pale ales ... in fact the only beers she doesn't like are wheaties and Belgians ... but anyway ... as I was saying ... all my pils and lagers have a slight sulphur aroma during fermentation and even when being kegged ... which needs time to balance out with the malt and hops ... that's why they are called lagers ... they need time to 'lager' (said with the Austin Power's quotation marks).

So if it tastes okay get it kegged or bottled and into the fridge at about 2-3C for a couple of weeks (a couple of months is even better if you can wait that long).

:icon_cheers: ghhb

+1

I just got a copy of The Bible, so apoligies to all when I don't stop quoting from it:

"Generally, undesirable concentrations of hydrogen sulphide are reduced during cold storage times of 5-7 days."
 
+1

I just got a copy of The Bible, so apoligies to all when I don't stop quoting from it:

"Generally, undesirable concentrations of hydrogen sulphide are reduced during cold storage times of 5-7 days."

Man, is there anything that Jesus guy didn't know? ;) :)






(Apologies to all believers out there, clearly meant as tongue in cheek response to Nick's post etc. etc.)
 
ok, hopefully some weeks in cold storage will help with the smell.

Is it ok to rack to seconday, gelatin and polyclar, then leave for a couple of weeks in the fridge on 1 degree before bottling?
Will the bottles still carbonate, hoping to avoid adding more yeast as it seems a bit messy.

thanks
Bjorn
 
Don't be adding stuff like carapils if the idea is to get a lower FG. The whole point of carapils, malto dextrin etc is to raise your FG, by leaving more residual unfermented stuff in your beer.

If you want dry, mash low with nothing but base malt. If you want really dry, mash low replacing some of your base mat with simple sugar.

Crystal will add some flavour, but will also add unfermentables that will raise your FG. If you want character but not a lot of unfermentables, then you are looking at munich, or amber, or melanoidin etc. Kilned malts not crytal/cara malts.

1.012 is dry, 1.010 is really quite dry, much lower than 1.010 is very dry.

Just mash for an hour... short mashes are not beneficial. They might not hurt, but they aren't helping squat. You can safely, till you have a bit more experience under your belt, completely ignore the existence of protiens in your beer. They will, if you just mash for a normal amount of time, at normal temperatures, with a normal sort of grain bill - look after themselves. The Maltsters work very hard to make sure that this is so.

As for fermentbility - You can and should be able to get a beautiful, crisp, dry, everything it should be pilsner style beer, with nothing but 100% pure pilsner malt mashed low for an hour or maybe 90min. If you are looking for even drier than that - heading towards mega beer - then you simply replace some malt with sugar.

Don't make life so hard for yourself. Low for a bit longer equals dry - higher for an hour equals not so dry. It truly is as simple as that.

TB
 
Don't be adding stuff like carapils if the idea is to get a lower FG. The whole point of carapils, malto dextrin etc is to raise your FG, by leaving more residual unfermented stuff in your beer.

If you want dry, mash low with nothing but base malt. If you want really dry, mash low replacing some of your base mat with simple sugar.

Crystal will add some flavour, but will also add unfermentables that will raise your FG. If you want character but not a lot of unfermentables, then you are looking at munich, or amber, or melanoidin etc. Kilned malts not crytal/cara malts.

1.012 is dry, 1.010 is really quite dry, much lower than 1.010 is very dry.

Just mash for an hour... short mashes are not beneficial. They might not hurt, but they aren't helping squat. You can safely, till you have a bit more experience under your belt, completely ignore the existence of protiens in your beer. They will, if you just mash for a normal amount of time, at normal temperatures, with a normal sort of grain bill - look after themselves. The Maltsters work very hard to make sure that this is so.

As for fermentbility - You can and should be able to get a beautiful, crisp, dry, everything it should be pilsner style beer, with nothing but 100% pure pilsner malt mashed low for an hour or maybe 90min. If you are looking for even drier than that - heading towards mega beer - then you simply replace some malt with sugar.

Don't make life so hard for yourself. Low for a bit longer equals dry - higher for an hour equals not so dry. It truly is as simple as that.

TB


Any newbs reading this, read it, read it, read it again................... then photocopy it and paste to the inside of your forehead.

Screwy
 
Don't be adding stuff like carapils if the idea is to get a lower FG. The whole point of carapils, malto dextrin etc is to raise your FG, by leaving more residual unfermented stuff in your beer.

If you want dry, mash low with nothing but base malt. If you want really dry, mash low replacing some of your base mat with simple sugar.

Crystal will add some flavour, but will also add unfermentables that will raise your FG. If you want character but not a lot of unfermentables, then you are looking at munich, or amber, or melanoidin etc. Kilned malts not crytal/cara malts.

1.012 is dry, 1.010 is really quite dry, much lower than 1.010 is very dry.

Just mash for an hour... short mashes are not beneficial. They might not hurt, but they aren't helping squat. You can safely, till you have a bit more experience under your belt, completely ignore the existence of protiens in your beer. They will, if you just mash for a normal amount of time, at normal temperatures, with a normal sort of grain bill - look after themselves. The Maltsters work very hard to make sure that this is so.

As for fermentbility - You can and should be able to get a beautiful, crisp, dry, everything it should be pilsner style beer, with nothing but 100% pure pilsner malt mashed low for an hour or maybe 90min. If you are looking for even drier than that - heading towards mega beer - then you simply replace some malt with sugar.

Don't make life so hard for yourself. Low for a bit longer equals dry - higher for an hour equals not so dry. It truly is as simple as that.

TB


Any newbs reading this, read it, read it, read it again................... then photocopy it and paste to the inside of your forehead.

Screwy
+1 to plussing one!
I agree wholeheartedly with screwtop in the fact that I encourage people to value this post from Thirsty Boy because I wholeheartedly agree with him as well!!
This is simple yet effective brewing at its best and this kind of approach (as demonstrated to me by a knowledgable friend) is what stopped me "umming and ahhing" over all the technical details and started me brewing AG.

HABAHAGD! :icon_cheers:
Jono.
 
Any newbs reading this, read it, read it, read it again................... then photocopy it and paste to the inside of your forehead.

Screwy

+1

I like his write up!
 
Thanks guys, appreciate the help.

ThirstyBoy, excellent stuff as always. Have been re-reading several of your posts to try understanding how it works.

Bjorn
 
Ok so while not of much help to Bjorn, I do have a question re a very similar sounding lager.....

recipe:
5kg German 2row pilsner malt
0.5kg Cara-pils (German)
37g Hellertauer 90mins
15g Hellertauer 5mins
1 Irish moss tab 10mins
Wyeast Danish Lager 2042

Mashed at 62C for 90mins then mash out at 72C transfer to leuter tun and leutered out in 45mins. Oh yeah the batch size was 30L into the fermenter, now it's 27L post racking.

OG <at inoculation> 1.055
Gravity right now 1.028 after 22days at 10C, I just racked of gross lees and gave the brew a tiny bit of aeration.

My question is this should the gravity still be this high after this long? I only used the one packet to inoculate with (had run out of DME so couldn't make up a decent started so decided to skip it. The wort was well aerated prior to inoculation 15mins with the airstone. Inoculation was at 15C and the temp was brought down to 10 over the next 12hrs.

The brew tastes great at this stage, very clean, but still with a hint of sweetness to the palate, so I know the gravity is at least partly to do with remaining fermentables. So is this normal given the very small starter used?

I figure I'll give another week before checking the gravity again hopefully by then it will be closer to the 1.012 mark where I want to be for bottling.

Anyway it's too hot here to spend any more time in front of the PC, guess I'll go sit in my beer cellar and cool off for a bit! :icon_drool2:

ThomasJ.
 
Thomas,
that sounds like a nice recipe.

1.028 do sound very high, though.
Mine went to 1.010 in 2 weeks at 10 degrees, sounds like your fermentation has stalled.

As long as the yeast started, it could probably be the lack of a large starter and possibly not enough airation.

Have read about how we need much larger starters at lager temperature.

This one is a long article but gives lots of really good info about how big yeast starter, why use a starter, and lots of other nuggets:

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-p...s-and-practices


Would rouse the yeast help, or maybe even chuck in another one?

thanks
Bjorn
 
Gravity right now 1.028 after 22days at 10C, I just racked of gross lees and gave the brew a tiny bit of aeration.
My question is this should the gravity still be this high after this long?

If you are using a hydrometer to measure make sure you kill any bubbles in the sample as it causes the hydro to float more. I always read my lagers on my refractometer to combat this as the colder ferment allows the beer/wort to retain more of the CO2.

Other than that, agitation of the wort/beer and warming will kickstart the yeast as you have done. Hoping you have not prematurely racked your beer, it should finish itself off within the next week.
 
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