Another Thoughts About Automating The System

[Zwickel]

to all the geeks and technical freaks here

Im pondering whole day long, how to enhance my semi automated brewing process.
Im not after automating the whole process, just for things that makes life easier.

Despite Im using a semi automated brewing system already, there are still a lot of things to do manually

So I wished could start the brewing process already early in the morning when Im still sleeping. Anyway whilst mashing there is nothing to do, just wait until time is over to start lautering. That time I could sleep as well...

But things have to be done first:
Start the computer, mashing in, means bringing water and grain together.

From this point on, starts my computer taking control of the operation, heating up to a certain temp, stirring and keeping control of the temp, draining the grain.

I dont want to invent the wheel again, I was just pondering if there is already a program that could do the job.

BINGO it is, what about using the controller of a washing mashine?

What does a washing mashine do?

When get started it takes a certain amount of water (what about putting the milled grain into the mash tun and leave it over night there?)

So the washingmashine (controller) starts, drawing a certain amount of water and heats it up (temp could be adjusted).
What formerly was the motor, now is the stirrer. stirrer starts its job.
Usually a (european) washing mashine uses two steps of temperatur, first step is pre-washing around 30C and second step is main washing around 60C.
As I said, correct temp could be adjusted to our desire.

When the time is over, the mashine starts draining.

That would be a perfect program for brewing beer, isnt it?

So we only had to search for an old controller and wiring it up.

Whattayathinkabout? :beer:

 

[NickB]

Sounds like a plan mate, and a damn good one at that. This is the sort of automation I'd be interested in, especially as I would love to get up to a mash well and truly under way.

Will be following this thread with interest!

Cheers

 

[Screwtop]

Sounds interesting, pretty sure washing machines here do not heat. The machines have two solenoid valves one each for cold and hot water inlets, and temps are varied in this way. Most wash in cold (by our temps) water using enzymic washing agents to save energy. I will still be watching your developments with interest.

You are the Energizer Bunny Zwickel, you keep going and going (with automation) :lol:

Great stuff,

Screwy

 

[justsomeguy]

Sounds interesting, pretty sure washing machines here do not heat. The machines have two solenoid valves one each for cold and hot water inlets, and temps are varied in this way. Most wash in cold (by our temps) water using enzymic washing agents to save energy. I will still be watching your developments with interest.

FYI

Quite a few do now heat actually. They simply dump cold water in then heat it t o the required temperature as defined by the wash setting. Our frontloader does that. Means that the water is heated to the correct temperature without requiring any specialized mixing of hot and cold, and only water required for the wash is heated so no excess water is heated.


I'm also going to be following this thread with some interest.

justsomeguy

 

[raven19]

And newer washing machines have the start timer all sorted too - on ours we can fill it with clothes, powder etc, then tell it to start at say 5am, so its all done by the time you are awake that morning.

If using the whole machine, the spin / drying cycle would be awesome for sparging - all wort would be whisked away from the grains from the spinning of the internal barrel. Although with a heap of grain inside, if it is slightly off centre the spin could destroy the unit or rattle its way out the door and down the street! :lol:

 

[daemon]

I like the washing machine concept but the trouble will be in the fact that you can't easily customise what's already been programmed. This will be hard coded into a chip and not exactly user friendly to modify.

You're better off starting with something like this: www.brewtroller.com. It's based on the Arduino system so it should be fairly flexible.

 

[randyrob]

What does a washing mashine do?

Hey Zwickel,

Only a crazy German would think of that

Try this link it's quite amusing, it has been done already

http://www.m-fey.de/brauen/index.htm

Rob.

 

[Zwickel]

gday mates,

Sounds interesting, pretty sure washing machines here do not heat. The machines have two solenoid valves one each for cold and hot water inlets, and temps are varied in this way. Most wash in cold (by our temps) water using enzymic washing agents to save energy.

yeah I know Screwy, but Ive seen european style washing mashines are in use too. Maybe not so many, but Ive seen some.

Quite a few do now heat actually. They simply dump cold water in then heat it t o the required temperature as defined by the wash setting. Our frontloader does that. Means that the water is heated to the correct temperature without requiring any specialized mixing of hot and cold, and only water required for the wash is heated so no excess water is heated.

thats exactly what our WM is doing.

And newer washing machines have the start timer all sorted too - on ours we can fill it with clothes, powder etc, then tell it to start at say 5am, so its all done by the time you are awake that morning.

thats the point that gave me this idea.

I like the washing machine concept but the trouble will be in the fact that you can't easily customise what's already been programmed. This will be hard coded into a chip and not exactly user friendly to modify.

You're better off starting with something like this: www.brewtroller.com. It's based on the Arduino system so it should be fairly flexible.

I wouldnt modify the program, just use it as it is. Yes I know about the arduino controller, Im actually using a selfmade computer program, doing stepped mash and everything works fine, but I cannot set a timer that starts the computer and the program in the morning unattended.
Another handicap is, that my program cannot start with drawing water first. The mash in is a work that I still have to do manually.
Since now I thought Id have to fill the mash tun with water first and then put the grain in.
But the more I think about that, the more I come to the conclusion, it doesnt matter what is in the kettle first. Taking grain to water or water to grain should not matter.

So my idea now is, the day before brewing day, I fill the milled grain into the mash tun, connect the water hose to the system, set the timer to 5am and leave it alone.

The german style washing mashines have only one water inlet (for cold water) and they work as follows:

Set the timer for desired start time and set the desired type of clothes.
At start, the mashine draws water to a certain level. Heats up the water to 30C and start washing for around 20 min (pre-washing).
Then drains the water and draws another portion of water, heats it up to 60C and works for around 60min. Then drains the water and starts spinning.

So, that could be modified to that:
5 oclock the controller starts drawing water, grain is already in the tun.
Heating up to say 52C, doing a 20min protein rest or whatever.
The output-lead for draining is deactivated/unused
After 20min (pre-wash) the controller heats up to say 65C and keeps the temp for around 60min.
Finish

That would be fine for any kind of ales, isnt it?

Hey Zwickel,

Only a crazy German would think of that

Try this link it's quite amusing, it has been done already

http://www.m-fey.de/brauen/index.htm

Rob.

Yeah, thats a very old site and quite amusing, but I do not want to use the whole mashine, dunno everything would be foodgrade in there.
Anyway, I have already a functioning brewing system and I still want to use my whole setup.
The washing mashine controller would be only an additional thingy for lazy days.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Bandito]

Well, there are thermostatic mixing valves. They are used on modern hot water systems to mix very hot water (60+ degC) with cold water to provide water at about 50degC at the taps. If these valves are available set to the desired temperature or adjustable, all that will be required is to leave the pc on and have it open a valve at the required time, then use a float valve to stop it at the desired level. Alternatively, perhaps an alarm clock could trip a debouncing circuit and turn on a relay to open the valve.

Simarily, how about a small hot water system set to heat water to the desired temp, and valves just like above. In this way the temperature control can be taken care of by existing technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostatic_mixing_valve

In summary, if you have a hot water system that uses one of these thermostatic mixing valves, you could have an extra outlet bypass the existing valve and pipe the very hot water directly into a brew water temperature mixing valve.

This place have a good range - will have a look through the massive pdf tonight and report back. actually, only need to go through the massive pdf is for prices.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/prod-CAT1.html

Looked at this one so far: http://www.rwc.co.uk/Public/tmv/planar.pdf

Quote 'Optional user-adjustable or lockable (and tamperproof) temperature control gives complete flexibility to the end user.'

Looking good!

 

[Bandito]

What formerly was the motor, now is the stirrer. stirrer starts its job.

What is the purpose of the stirrer? to maintain constant temperature of the mash (to move the cooler mash from the outside of the Mash Tun with the warmer mash in the center? - do you really need it?

The hot water system of the place I moved into about 7 months ago has one of these thermostatic mixing valves, the house is only about 10 months old, which makes sense, because these are quite new, and more importantly, the laws that require them are quite new aparently. I only just noticed it a few weeks ago because of the colored plastic cap and was like 'what the hell is that? going to have to google that one!'

For the record, my washing machine heats by default, I have it plumbed straight into the hot water outlet and also have it set to 60 degC. This is on the advice of an alergy specialist that cost $400 to see to wash verything in 60degC+ water. So unless you are an alergy specialist dont bother bagging my dust mite sanitisation regime.

Hmmm, 100 posts, how bout that.

 

[Zwickel]

What is the purpose of the stirrer? to maintain constant temperature of the mash (to move the cooler mash from the outside of the Mash Tun with the warmer mash in the center? - do you really need it?

yeah, I really need it.

There are two reasons for permanent stirring whilst mashing:

1. homogenize the temp. [dont need to explain]

2. homogenize the enzymes; have to explain

Ill try to explain in very simple words:
Enzymes are cutting the starch molecules into smaller parts. Enzymes are not able to move around for searching for uncutted starch molecules. Whilst stirring, youll mixing up starch and enzymes and so the enzymes are able to cut much more starch, as youd leave them in an arrest.

Sorry for my poor english.

Cheers mate :icon_cheers:


edit: spelling

 

[gregs]

Zwickel; Im not sure what type of system you have but if you take a look at the( Dedicated herms guide, problems and solutions) thread, its air locked in (All grain AG & partials) it was Kirem, in post 25 discussing other things but I was surprised at how simple automation could be with this style of brewing. I would love to know your thought on this. Cheers.

 

[Yeastie Beastie]

Sounds interesting, pretty sure washing machines here do not heat.
Screwy

Correct but front loaders generally only have a cold water in and they heat their own water.

 

[Zwickel]

Zwickel; Im not sure what type of system you have but if you take a look at the( Dedicated herms guide, problems and solutions) thread, its air locked in (All grain AG & partials) it was Kirem, in post 25 discussing other things but I was surprised at how simple automation could be with this style of brewing. I would love to know your thought on this. Cheers.

Hello Greg,

I have read that thread with interest. As Ive mentioned earlier, Im using already a semi automated, computer controlled brewing system. The program is very flexible and one can set various parameters.

just for example the settings for my Pilsener beer:
http://www.elcom-mayer.de/beer/phasen.jpg

Im missing only the possibility to start the whole process fully automated, so when Im still lying in my bed sleeping, the program should start its work without an initial helping hand.

I wouldnt want to dough in the grain at night before, as mentioned in the other thread, Id afraid the ph would drop too much.

So, my intension would be, to start the brewing proces with mashing in.

The valves and any other hardware thats needed Im using already, the only thing Id need is an old washing machine controller that could start working at a predetermined time. Further thoughts led me to deliberations, why not to use the wm controller for the whole brewing process, so I wouldnt need the computer anymore....at least when brewing Weizen and Ales.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Tony]

What happens if the mash becomes unballanced and it just stops and starts beeping? :lol:

A very good idea Z. I will watch this one with interest.

cheers

 

[Zwickel]

What happens if the mash becomes unballanced and it just stops and starts beeping? :lol:

the buzzer is placed next to our bed, then it would be time to get up

fortunately my wife is a very calm and understanding person :super: