Another Rochefort 10 Thread

[manticle]

Just after some tips from anyone who has successfully brewed a tribute, homage or clone of this beer.

I'm developing a recipe based heavily on the brewing network show found here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Sun...-Rochefort-Show

I've also used the stats from Brew like a monk which are:

OG: 1096
Apparent attenuation 89%, ABV 11.3%
IBU: 27

Pilsner malt, caramel malt, wheat starch, light and dark sugar.

Hallertau, styrian Goldings.

I've worked out a recipe for a 20 L batch which I aim to age, in bulk for 6+ months (more likely a year) before bottling. I'll also possibly be brewing with two other brewers so this recipe will get scaled up to a 60 L final volume batch.

The things I'm unclear on is the caramel malt - Special B seems a bit dark, Aromatic seems a bit light (and not a crystal) but I can't find an available medium BELGIAN crystal (caravienne or somesuch). The monks only use 1 crystal (medium Belgian type) apparently. I'm also unclear on the amount of coriander. Don't want to overdo it. Colour will be darker than suggested owing to use of dark candi syrup (proprietrary blend) not featured in recipe software.

Cheers.

ROCHEFORT 10 TRIBUTE

Type: All grain
Size: 20 liters
Color: 26 HCU (~14 SRM)

Bitterness: 27 IBU

OG: 1.096

FG: 1.008

Alcohol: 11.3% v/v (8.9% w/w)

Grain: 6kg Dingeman Pilsner
250g Dingeman biscuit
500g Raw wheat
400g Dingeman Special B
200g Dingeman aromatic



Mash: 70% efficiency, [temp] 55/62/68/72/78
[time] 5/15/45/10/10

Boil: 90 minutes, SG 1.060, 32 liters

Adjuncts: 200g Dextrose to kettle

700g Belgian dark candi sugar, added in increments after primary winds down

Spices: 20g fresh crushed coriander [email protected]

Hops: 25g Hallertauer (4.25% AA, 80 min.)
25g Styrian Goldings (3.5% AA, 80 min.)
10g Hallertauer (4.25% AA, 10 min.)
10g Styrian Goldings (3.5% AA, 10 min.)

Yeast: Wyeast 1762, 4-5 L starter grown from full fresh smack pack using reserved wort identical to above.

Salts: 4g CaCl2 to mash and boil

 

[Nick JD]

Wheat starch is "cornflour" ... but the cornflour made from wheat. Sounds cornfusing, but some packets of cornflour are 100% wheat starch.

I'd say it's not much different than adding dextrose if it's pure starch.

Also, a lot of the Yanks cloning these belgians seem to gravitate towards "raw sugar" as a large chunk of the sugar.

Have you had attenuation problems from adding all the sugar in the boil? I'm sold on chucking it in at the start with 1214, but I'm not much of a 1762 fan - to me it seemed to be US05 with some pepper.

 

[brettprevans]

Mants

whilst i applaud your good taste on making a R10 clone, I cant applaude you starting a new topic. however moving past that there are of course a couple of threads on R10 that Ive found us3eful, ive also got Kleiny's R10 clone recipe for you below. cracker.

Rocheforte10 Kleiny Clone
A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.15
Anticipated OG: 1.095 Plato: 22.62
Anticipated SRM: 51.2
Anticipated IBU: 40.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 69 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
54.6 5.00 kg. Pilsner Australia 1.037 1
21.9 2.00 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 8
4.9 0.45 kg. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
3.3 0.30 kg. Weyermann Caramunich I Germany 1.036 51
15.3 1.40 kg. Candi Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 275


Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 36.8 60 min.
20.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 4.50 3.5 20 min.


Yeast
-----
any high grav yeast


Mash Schedule
singl step
Saccharification Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 0 Time: 0

Notes
can sub munich1 for JW light munich
any high grav yeast



I wouldnt be using much corriander at all. 10g max i recon. must be background flavour cause i cant remember getting corriander

 

[manticle]

@Nick: Supposedly the tradition of adding wheat starch (originally corn starch, changed to wheat to avoid GM corn) was to supplement protein levels in the monks' vegetarian diet.

@ CM2: I've read plenty of the other threads and to be honest, none are particularly conclusive. Certainly no updates on how the beer actually turned out. Needs rejuvenation.

I know the beer doesn't taste like it has coriander but it does- not much according to the head brewer but some.

Kleiny's looks a bit off to me. 40 IBU and single infusion might make a great dark strong but very different from my research into R10. Grist and some other details look very different too.

 

[Nick JD]

Supposedly the tradition of adding wheat starch (originally corn starch, changed to wheat to avoid GM corn) was to supplement protein levels in the monks' vegetarian diet.

Just a guess, but wouldn't wheat starch have less protein in it than wheat? SOunds like they're trying to trick God during Lent, or Ramadan or whatever they stop eating for.

Giving up food and drinking 10% beer probably does bring you closer to God.

 

[manticle]

Maybe. The wheat starch is probably the least important part of the whole recipe but since the beer is as close to God as this atheist will ever get, I thought I'd do my best to stick with what they suggest.

To answer this question which wasn't there when I first replied (added in later edit):

'Have you had attenuation problems from adding all the sugar in the boil? I'm sold on chucking it in at the start with 1214, but I'm not much of a 1762 fan - to me it seemed to be US05 with some pepper'

Some earlier Belgian brews that I made with all the sugar in the boil produced too much warm alcohol for my liking. Advice from other brewers and consistent with some suggestions for yeasts from wyeast (particularly in regards to 3787) suggested adding in slowly after primary had slowed/stopped. Since doing that with any higher gravity Belgian styles I've made, the warmer alc problem has not appeared.

 

[Nick JD]

I've got a Belgian Dark Strong in the fermenter atm that is threatening to not attenuate, but I've pushed the ******* to the nth degree - starting gravity was 1.105 - it's got half of Bundaberg's yearly production in there.

Might have reached the end of the yeast, but I've read it'll go to there. It's actually a bit of a mongrel, got 30 IBUs of Amarillo late ... so not really to style, but I thought imagine Chimay Blue with Amarillo and caraaroma...

I hope it finishes.

Is 1762 the Rochefort strain?

 

[manticle]

I've got a Belgian Dark Strong in the fermenter atm that is threatening to not attenuate, but I've pushed the ******* to the nth degree - starting gravity was 1.105 - it's got half of Bundaberg's yearly production in there.

Might have reached the end of the yeast, but I've read it'll go to there. It's actually a bit of a mongrel, got 30 IBUs of Amarillo late ... so not really to style, but I thought imagine Chimay Blue with Amarillo and caraaroma...

I hope it finishes.

Is 1762 the Rochefort strain?

From my reading, some trappists have used US hops at various times. Mongrels can be awful but they can also be fantastic.

According to Mr Malty yeast comparison, 1762 is the rochefort strain. I've never used it before.

 

[brettprevans]

your probably right manticle about the recipe. it tastes fairly close though.

i completely agree with BLAM about adding sugar slowly thru ferment. ive always had much better results doing it this way.

re crystal malt. i vaugly remmeber ross stocking caravienne but CB site doesnt have it listed. maybe abby malt? but thats only 40EBC. Crystal - Heritage (Medium) by marris otter is about right? i know its not belgian but in liue of anything else?..... or just back on special B and sub in some extra light crystal to make up fermentables.

re corridander. 10g i recon, no more.

 

[Kleiny]

*Nick - adding starch would not be the same as adding glucose as starch is made up of a long chain of glucose molecules once cleaved by alpha and beta amylase can take on many forms from glucose to maltose to maltotriose etc, this is how we get a different rates of fermentation efficiency by creating sugars that can and cant be utilized by yeast.

*Mants - my dark strong is off the mark but getting there the 40IBU attempts to balance the highly sweet finish and in my attempt is not out waying the desired malty sweet side. The Coriander in my recipe may be a bit low as i cant pick it in the beer. I used the trappist high alc yeast blend from wyeast i think there is actually a strain that is said to be very close to the Rochefort strain, cant remember which one.

My beer was a good starting point most of my info came from brew like a monk and
Sean Paxton Rochefort Clone
The above link is Sean Paxton the home brew chef's homepage, he has done alot of work on this recipe even a guided tour of the brewery, download the tour pics from his sight somewhere.

Goodluck and let me now if you nail it, i'm yet to re-brew this one but maybe soon

Kleiny

 

[manticle]

*Nick - adding starch would not be the same as adding glucose as starch is made up of a long chain of glucose molecules once cleaved by alpha and beta amylase can take on many forms from glucose to maltose to maltotriose etc, this is how we get a different rates of fermentation efficiency by creating sugars that can and cant be utilized by yeast.

*Mants - my dark strong is off the mark but getting there the 40IBU attempts to balance the highly sweet finish and in my attempt is not out waying the desired malty sweet side.

Yeah that makes sense. If I can actually achieve the recipe's projected 1008 from 1096, I should get there but I can imagine it may not be wonderfully easy. I think stepping the sacch rest may help, as well as adding the sugar at the end (two things not done with the monks' version).

The Coriander in my recipe may be a bit low as i cant pick it in the beer.

I can't pick it in the original really either though. According to the brewing network link, coriander is included historically as a preservative rather than as a flavouring.

I used the trappist high alc yeast blend from wyeast i think there is actually a strain that is said to be very close to the Rochefort strain, cant remember which one.

1762

My beer was a good starting point most of my info came from brew like a monk and
Sean Paxton Rochefort Clone
The above link is Sean Paxton the home brew chef's homepage, he has done alot of work on this recipe even a guided tour of the brewery, download the tour pics from his sight somewhere.

The Sean Paxton recipe was brewed before he visited the Rochefort monastery/brewery. Apparently his recipe was judged close but after his visit he said he would do some things differently. My recipe is based on his discussion of how things were at the brewery following his visit (and his homebrewchef attempt).

Goodluck and let me now if you nail it, i'm yet to re-brew this one but maybe soon

Kleiny

If you're willing to wait the required maturation time and assuming mine works OK, I'd be well happy to swap a bottle or two.

 

[BigDaddy]

Some earlier Belgian brews that I made with all the sugar in the boil produced too much warm alcohol for my liking. Advice from other brewers and consistent with some suggestions for yeasts from wyeast (particularly in regards to 3787) suggested adding in slowly after primary had slowed/stopped. Since doing that with any higher gravity Belgian styles I've made, the warmer alc problem has not appeared.

I've had the same experience with the higher gravity belgian ales using WLP500. They also needed a longer ageing period before they balance out and 'come together' compared to those where the additions have been late in the primary. I reckon your hop choice and IBU's are good though. It certainly is a lovely beer. Good luck and I'll be watching with interest :icon_cheers:

 

[Nick JD]

*Nick - adding starch would not be the same as adding glucose as starch is made up of a long chain of glucose molecules once cleaved by alpha and beta amylase can take on many forms from glucose to maltose to maltotriose etc, this is how we get a different rates of fermentation efficiency by creating sugars that can and cant be utilized by yeast.

Of course, but many of the products of "body" are not starch derived. At a low mash temp, virtually all of that starch will become maltose ... and then alcohol. Compared to the same weight in grain you probably won't get the same FG.

A 100% starch mash with amalyse added would not finish above 1.000 unless you mashed wicked high.

 

[Vitalstatistix]

Manticle, send me your final recipie so I can put it in beersmith and scale it for a double batch and stuff and things and such.

 

[Norcs]

Manticle, any updates as to how your recipe went ? I have been stalking your threads here and on BBB but to no avail.

Is the maturation process over ?

....back to lurking now

 

[manticle]

Should be maturing till around August, then I'll rack into bottling bucket with new yeast and sugar. Willl update the thread.

I made a small amount of choc raisin dubbel with some extra beer (20 L for the demijohn, 8-10 left over) prior to adding the dark candi to the main batch.

Very nice, zero head retention (maybe due to our accidental 2 hour protein rest?). If the main batch turns out tasting right, I will remake but make sure the step mash is spot on this time. The taste of the dubbel was very reassuring - nice colour and complexity, compared favourably with R8 (with the added choc and raisin notes too). I imagine the candi syrup (D2) will bring something extra to it but will have to wait a few more months to find out.

 

[manticle]

Update.

I siphoned this out of the demijohn a couple of weeks ago. Due to the aforementioned accidental extended protein rest I was expecting bugger all head and mouthfeel so I decided to do a minimash of 1 kg dark wheat (all I had), 100g special B and 1 hersbrucker plug.

Reduced to about 2 L and fermented with US05. Added in while still at high krausen. Having aged this lovely lady for around a year, I would be adding some 05 anyway to the bottling bucket so that is now taken care of.

Just took a gravity reading and it's 1010 so I'll wait a few more days, then chill for another few, then bottle. Drinking the hydrometer sample at the moment - looks like the proteins from the wheat are apparent and the flavour has all the complexity I'd hope for from an aged dark strong. A few more weeks and I'll actually be able to crack a carbonated bottle and update once and for all but I'm pretty stoked that the wait seems to have been worth it.

Will just have to make sure I don't drink the whole batch too quickly. It's pretty potent at around 11 +%. Dried and dark fruit flavours, some spice (as much the special B and yeast as the small amount of coriander we put in), touch of candied orange peel and light warming alcohol.

 

[manticle]

Well this might be the penultimate update rather than the promised update once and for all.

The beer itself is delicious and the sweetness from the carb sugar is fading. Dry finish is key to this I think.

However, the beer is still very low carbed, too low really, despite me liking low carb. It needs more spritz. At around 11%, perhaps US05 wasn't the best yeast for reseeding. I may need to get some more 1762 or another yeast capable of high grav and do a quick add and recap. Obviously the drop in sweetness means the 05 still holding on but only just I reckon.

Beautiful flavour, complexity and colour (deep, clear red in the light) but having invested a fair bit of waiting time, I want it to be perfect.

 

[black_labb]

I've been following this thread quite a bit but haven't had much to say. I love the Rochefort beers as well and have a cube of something that should be very close to the 8, though it all happens in the fermetaton.

Keep us posted, I'm sure I'm not the only one reading

 

[Vitalstatistix]

I've been following this thread quite a bit but haven't had much to say. I love the Rochefort beers as well and have a cube of something that should be very close to the 8, though it all happens in the fermetaton.

Keep us posted, I'm sure I'm not the only one reading

Speaking of fermentation, here is my cube of the same batch (on left) and another dark strong currently going ape.