Amber-ish Lager - Style & Recipe comments?

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technobabble66

Meat Popsicle
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Larger Lager,
Possibly a Czech Amber Lager, but too bitter. Possibly an Altbier, but with Lager yeast (S-189)

Vol = 21L
OG=1.045
FG=1.008
IBU=40
EBC=25.6
alc%=5.1

3.14kg Vienna (wey) 78.5%
0.6kg Munich (viking) 15%
0.2kg CaraAroma (wey) 5%
0.06kg Acidulated (wey) 1.5%

20g Hall Mitt & Helga @ FWH
30g Helga + 20g Hall Mitt into cube, as if @20min
maybe 5g EKG or Styrians dry hopped

Yeast = S-189, fermented ~14°C, D-rested & lagered.
————————————————
So 2 main questions:
1) What style is this fitting into, just out of interest?
2) Feedback, comments, & suggestions on the recipe?
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Style-wise, it looks similar to an Altbier, but with lager yeast, and i believe the caramel elements are out of style. So it seems similar to a Czech Amber Lager on the flavours, but is much more bitter going by the style guidelines.
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Fwiw, the loose back-story is: i wanted to make a slightly more simple lager (to take advantage of the ready-to-rock yeast cake i’ll have free in 1 batch’s time) to compliment the International Amber Lager (w lots of US hops) & the Munich Dunkel i’ll have lagering soon. However, i quickly realised i can just buy a fairly simple lighter lager, and i should use my brewing slots to make something a bit more interesting. So i’ve been looking at Altbiers, Munich Helles, Festbiers, Vienna lagers & Czech Amber lagers - i.e.: paler beers, but with a significant bit of malty oomph; and swinging between straight dry maltiness or more caramel elements. The obvious choice would be a Red Lager, of some sort (what official style would that be under?) however, i’ve already got a Better Red Than Dead clone carbing up in bottles, so i wasn’t sure about going down the specific Red path. Instead, i thought i’d go with something like the version above - mainly base malt, maybe some Munich, and a crystal in subtle but “present” levels.

So subsequently, i think i’m looking at a copper-to-red lager, that is dry and malty with caramel elements that aren’t coming out too sweet.

The choice of crystal was either medium for typical caramel, pale for light honey-caramel, or dark/CaraAroma to see what that’d do. I’ve also got some ESB’s carbing up, so i thought i’d skip the more typical caramel notes. Which led me to CaraAroma - i’ve used it a bit, but normally in recipes with lots of malts, so i’m not 100% sure on exactly what it does for me. This seems like it might be a good way to test it.

With the Munich, i generally like the maltiness it brings, but i’m coming to learn it might “muddy” the impact of crystal malts. (so it might foil the idea of testing what CaraAroma does). So i’ve been debating whether to leave it in, swap it out for a lesser amount of Ding Aromatic, or drop it entirely (maybe increasing the CaraAroma slightly).

Pretty happy with the hops, but happy to hear suggestions on amounts or types.
Do the IBUs look about right?

Thoughts?
 
I did one today with JW Ale and caramunich 2 saaz and w-34/70. I was thinking exactly the same thing. It came out amber. I called a lager I did a vienna but later after bottling it wasn't the amber enough. Wey vienna. I give up.
 
i tried to respond but just fecked meself over...

brew it, share it, reflect and re-brew
 
Pseudo something. Everything I brew is a pseudo something even on loose homebrew platform.
I craft something to my liking and interest with ingredients I have then struggle to fit it to a recognized style.
I've actually invented a couple of style profiles of my own into my software haha.

That beer looks good but It surely is a pale ale/ oops Lager! a ballance that's been done around the world.
Oh, New World? it is. We make beers with mixed ingredients from all over the world. :p

Although the 5g dry hop is an extra process you could skip. Not worth it.

What is Hall Mitt? :unsure:
 
'Twould be an Amber Kellerbier or a Märzen, leaning more towards a Märzen due to the caramel flavour
 
My thoughts are that it looks like it will pull up as a great beer regardless of style guidelines. They need not to define your brews.

As for the Munich, anecdotally I've found it to not muddy the malt profile but to enhance it with the right grain bill. To muddy the malt profile is a good indication of too many malts outcompeting for flavour.

I'm a little surprised to see that you've used Caraaroma plenty of times but still not sure what it does for you. Perhaps the next brew you do could be 90% base, 10% Caraaroma. Simple recipes make fantastic beers.
 
The gist of brewing in Australia 2016. Style guidelines are helpful but there are no rules.
 
Thanks guys for the comments. Most appreciated!
Danscraftbeer said:
Pseudo something. Everything I brew is a pseudo something even on loose homebrew platform.
I craft something to my liking and interest with ingredients I have then struggle to fit it to a recognized style.
I've actually invented a couple of style profiles of my own into my software haha.

That beer looks good but It surely is a pale ale/ oops Lager! a ballance that's been done around the world.
Oh, New World? it is. We make beers with mixed ingredients from all over the world. :p

Although the 5g dry hop is an extra process you could skip. Not worth it.

What is Hall Mitt? :unsure:
Yeah - i'm kinda similar. Start with 1+ ingredients i want to do something with, throw some stuff together, then check the BJCP style guidelines to see what the hell i'm creating. The style fit is more out of curiosity, and a slight deference to the idea that those styles developed on the basis that they "work."
The 5g EKG may or may not happen. Still not sure. The basic thinking was that i find EKG elevates caramel elements really well, and that's something i may want to introduce to this. So it might be 5-15g, depending on how the wind is blowing.
The 5g is probably a bit small, maybe 10-15g is better, but TBH i've found in a few batches that a tiny amount like 10g (of EKG in 1 & Citra in another) comes through quite noticeably. And i only want slightly noticeable for this. I think. Maybe. OTOH, Lager yeast seems to drop out the hops a bit more. So you're right, it might elevate to 15g.

Reman said:
'Twould be an Amber Kellerbier or a Märzen, leaning more towards a Märzen due to the caramel flavour
Yep, checked both of them. Amber Kellerbier sounds right, but the key is that Kellers are super fresh from the lagering barrel. This won't be. Similarly, Marzen sounds about right in the text description, but is muuuuch less bitter, apparently, and a fair bit stronger.
So sort of similar to the Czech Amber Lager - the "verbal" description sounds fairly close, but the numbers tell a different story.
But thanks for suggesting - i'm partly asking about the style because i haven't really tried any of these various styles, and it's a bit hard to gauge what the text translates to in the mouth, or in comparison to other styles in the mouth. So i'm hoping for some education from those more in the know :lol:

Midnight Brew said:
My thoughts are that it looks like it will pull up as a great beer regardless of style guidelines. They need not to define your brews.

As for the Munich, anecdotally I've found it to not muddy the malt profile but to enhance it with the right grain bill. To muddy the malt profile is a good indication of too many malts outcompeting for flavour.

I'm a little surprised to see that you've used Caraaroma plenty of times but still not sure what it does for you. Perhaps the next brew you do could be 90% base, 10% Caraaroma. Simple recipes make fantastic beers.
Thanks for the positivity, Cam!!
Yeah, i'm not 100% sure on my original comments about Munich "muddying" the flavours - where it's occurred i may've just used too many things rather than a particular malt being the main culprit.
With the CaraAroma, i've got a reasonable idea what it brings, but again, it's exact profile was a little "blurred" by other malts in the mix. So a more simple grist might be constructive to my education :D As an example, one issue was a pale ale i used it in (plus many other malts, mind you) and it took a few months to mellow out, then was awesome.
So in that sense, i'm tempted to up the CaraAroma a bit to 250 or 300g so as to get a better hit from it; but i'm trying to use a more restrained hand with recipes these days. And like all these things, some people talk up how super strong it is, others say it's fabulous and use lots (e.g.: had a red ale using 11%, super smooth & yummy).
So the CaraAroma might get a boost... thinking 300g, at the mo'


Cheers all!
Keep the comments coming!
 
Alrighty, some tweaking has occurred. I'll probably go with this:

Vol = 21L
OG=1.045
FG=1.008
IBU=40
EBC=32.4 (Bru'n Water says 26.8)
alc%=5.1

3.0kg Vienna (wey) 75%
0.68kg Munich (viking) 17%
0.32kg CaraAroma (wey) 8%

20g Hall Mitt & Helga @ FWH
30g Helga + 20g Hall Mitt into cube, as if @20min
maybe 10g EKG or Styrians dry hopped

Mash 55/64/72/78 for 5/70/20/5

Yeast = S-189, fermented ~14°C, D-rested at 18°C & lagered at 3°C for 2-3 weeks.
-----------
Nice & simple.
8% CaraAroma should be a solid hit without being too overboard. Hopefully.
Very tempted to throw lots of New World fruity & resiny hops at it. That'll be the next one if this one works.
This is hopefully to just test the basic idea of this grist (esp the CaraAroma) with a lager yeast.
Hopefully oodles of yumminess that will also evolve over time in the bottle.
 

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