All Grain V Partial Mash.

[Paleman]

Quite enjoying my partial mash brewing at the moment. Ive given birth to about 6 mini mashes, since my days of K&K. My K&K's were serious stuff, steeped grains, rehydrated Safale yeast's, and so on. I just couldnt get that taste i wanted.

I have stepped up to mashing grains, hopping, adding malt extract and hop flavouring/aroma, and also using liquid yeasts. And my beers have improved ten notches. They actually taste fresh, very nice, no twang, in fact close to premium I will say i am content............but not fulfilled !!

So Allgrain !

How many more notches can i expect to step up, if i decide to rid my beers of extract ? And mash fully.......Im even in thoughts of growing my own hops, and using fresh hop cones/flowers. But on the main, will still use pellets as fresh as possible.

Is there a marked flavour difference. Enough to warrant the outlay of purchasing all the gear from scratch.

To those that have recently stepped up from partial mashing to allgrain, or still do both, what are the comparisons ?

Sorry for the brain pick, But big decisions have to be made. :chug:

Thanks all.

 

[goatherder]

Paleman, it sounds like you don't have many notches to go. Are you doing full boils with your partials?

Doing a full boil extract brew is pretty good next step from doing partials with hopped extracts. If you use unhopped extract you can do a full 60min boil and add your full complement of hops. Combine this with a partial or some specialty steeping and you'll have plenty of options to play with.

To do a full boil extract brew you will need a full size pot to boil in. a 30-40 litre pot for a 23 litre batch and a heat source to match. Do some searches here on burners for some options.

The thing is, once you have the kit for a full boil extract brew, there is no excuse for not doing AG. Check out the "all-grain brewing in a bag" thread for details. The only extra kit you need is a grain bag.

I do allgrain because I like it. Gathering and making the kit, designing the beers from scratch and attempting to master the mashing process to hit the correct gravities give me as much satisfaction as the finished product does. If I just wanted good quality cheap beer, maybe I'd do things differently and maybe the end product wouldn't be as good. But I wouldn't have as much fun.

It sounds to me like you've decided already. Get yourself some AG gear and find a decent brewshop. Welcome to the club.

 

[Paleman]

Paleman, it sounds like you don't have many notches to go. Are you doing full boils with your partials?

Doing a full boil extract brew is pretty good next step from doing partials with hopped extracts. If you use unhopped extract you can do a full 60min boil and add your full complement of hops. Combine this with a partial or some specialty steeping and you'll have plenty of options to play with.

To do a full boil extract brew you will need a full size pot to boil in. a 30-40 litre pot for a 23 litre batch and a heat source to match. Do some searches here on burners for some options.

The thing is, once you have the kit for a full boil extract brew, there is no excuse for not doing AG. Check out the "all-grain brewing in a bag" thread for details. The only extra kit you need is a grain bag.

I do allgrain because I like it. Gathering and making the kit, designing the beers from scratch and attempting to master the mashing process to hit the correct gravities give me as much satisfaction as the finished product does. If I just wanted good quality cheap beer, maybe I'd do things differently and maybe the end product wouldn't be as good. But I wouldn't have as much fun.

It sounds to me like you've decided already. Get yourself some AG gear and find a decent brewshop. Welcome to the club.

Thanks once again GH. Another top reply.

Basically i am mashing 2.5 to 3 kilo of grain, around 62 - 68 degrees, for 70 -75 minutes. Sparging with 78 degrees. Getting reasonable efficiency of around the low 70's.

Boil of 90 minutes, bittering hops added 60 minutes. My dried extract is added around 15 minutes from the end with flavouring hops, then usually aroma hops at a minute or flame out.

Makes for a beautiful Ale, with the appropriate Wyeast.

But i think actually building my beer from scratch is drawing me to the darkside

P.S. I dont use hopped Extracts.

 

[Kai]

I brewed partials for a year, I was making excellent beer to my standards, but two things consistently emerged:

#1 I couldn't lighten the colour enough on beers like wheat and pils.

#2 I wasn't getting the attenuation I wanted.

I solved number two by adding a few hundred grams of sugar to each batch to bring the attenuation down, that was good enough. Number one in retrospect I could have alleviated by using dry extract rather than liquid, but the only way to solve it (as well as #2 in the same move) was to do 2x partials and combine them as an all-grain, and that was a little too much for me on a Friday night after work.

Ultimately though, you can make excellent beer with partials, just as good as the all-grain equivalent in almost all cases. Just don't expect to match the colour of lighter styles, in my opinion.

 

[Jazzafish]

Thanks once again GH. Another top reply.

Basically i am mashing 2.5 to 3 kilo of grain, around 62 - 68 degrees, for 70 -75 minutes. Sparging with 78 degrees. Getting reasonable efficiency of around the low 70's.

Boil of 90 minutes, bittering hops added 60 minutes. My dried extract is added around 15 minutes from the end with flavouring hops, then usually aroma hops at a minute or flame out.

Makes for a beautiful Ale, with the appropriate Wyeast.

But i think actually building my beer from scratch is drawing me to the darkside

P.S. I dont use hopped Extracts.

Well your basically doing an all grain beer, just adding extract! If you replace your extract with some more grains to mash your away!

I can't see any reason for you not trying a batch!

The main thing to worry about is hitting the right mash temperature, and holding for at least an hour. Generally holding at around the 66*C mark will give you a good beer. A few degrees lower will produce a drier beer, a few higher will produce a heavier beer to be general. Programs like beersmith or promash do the mash temp calculations for you. They also give you a fair idea what to expect from any recipe. I strongly suggest that you download both trials and see what you like better before getting the full versions.

Here is a simple recipe of an english type ale that has won me prizes:

SOCKEYE English Bitter

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.20
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.84
Anticipated EBC: 13.5
Anticipated IBU: 25.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
95.2 4.00 kg. Bairds Ale Great Britain 1.038 5
4.8 0.20 kg. JW Crystal Australia 1.002 110

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
12.00 g. Fuggle Pellet 5.70 11.2 60 min.
12.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 10.3 60 min.
12.00 g. Fuggle Pellet 5.70 2.2 10 min.
12.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 2.1 10 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 Unit(s)Whirfloc Tablet Fining 20 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP005 British Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain kg: 4.20
Water Qts: 13.33 - Before Additional Infusions
Water L: 12.61 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 3.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 66 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 0 Time: 0
Sparge Temp : 75 Time: 60


Total Mash Volume L: 15.42 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Celsius.

 

[DJR]

2.5 to 3 kilo of grain

Another 1 to 2 kilos of grain and you are there! Might as well do it and see what the differences are. For me, it's getting rid of that "extract taste" and not having to check dates of ingredients - uncracked grain lasts a hell of a lot longer than liquid extract.

What setup are you using for partials? If you are getting > 70% it would be assumed you're not using a colander to sparge?

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

At the moment I do exactly what you are doing: generally I mash, boil, and top up with 1-1.5kg Coopers extra pale LME, or some DME. Sometimes I add a kit and just mash grains in for extra 'quality' gravity, plus some coloured grains. I used to do all-grain, but I don't have the space now. Besides, Haydo snatched up the gear.

All in all, I like what I've got going. It's a little fiddly, lacks a bit of precision and consistency, and heating/cooling is a pain, but it produces quality beers. I miss the all grain because of the romance of it I guess (being at one with the mash, etc.) and the control you have.

I think you should go all grain just for the experience, and believe it or not, the simplicity. It's extremely rewarding; especially so if you have a nice streamlined setup.

However, if your ferm temps are good, good yeast, good water, etc. - which won't change with an upgrade to all grain - you probably won't notice a difference in your beers. You can at least brew that Hoegaarden clone though. I say do it for the romance.

 

[Haydo]

You know its gone to a better place Adrain!!!

I now have my first AG on tap, well worth the effort, no turning back now.

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Yeah, you'll definitely use it more than I would have.

BUT, you won't push it as hard as Stu and I did. Half a kilo of Saaz in the bottom of the boiler - I think it was the keg boiler actually, not the sexy one you have now - really tests out the ball valve on the outlet.

So, looks like everyone is invited around to Hayden's. Gotta make sure that 'harbour bridge' font works properly.

 

[Paleman]

2.5 to 3 kilo of grain

What setup are you using for partials? If you are getting > 70% it would be assumed you're not using a colander to sparge?

Using a mini mash tun DJR. Works very well.

Thanks for the replys all, very interesting reading. Thanks for the recipe Jazzafish, i love a nice English Ale, looks like a cracker.

Dunkel_boy, what Hoegaarden clone, you know more than you let on !

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Will need some fine-tuning...

Hoegaarden - 20L, 75% eff.

500g Weyermann pale wheat
1kg Maris Otter
250g Weyermann Munich (light)
2kg Bairds (I think) torrefied wheat
100g oats (flaked)
500g rice hulls
SG - 1045-1050

1 plug Styrian Goldings (60min)
1 plug Styrian Goldings (15min)
1 plug Czech Saaz (5 min)
IBU - 15

Extra:
1-1.5tbsp dried BITTER orange peel (normal orange peel can be too sweet)
1-2 tsp crushed coriander seeds

Yeast:
Cultured, or WLP401 (I think?) Belgian Wit II

 

[Paleman]

Will need some fine-tuning...

Hoegaarden - 20L, 75% eff.

500g Weyermann pale wheat
1kg Maris Otter
250g Weyermann Munich (light)
2kg Bairds (I think) torrefied wheat
100g oats (flaked)
500g rice hulls
SG - 1045-1050

1 plug Styrian Goldings (60min)
1 plug Styrian Goldings (15min)
1 plug Czech Saaz (5 min)
IBU - 15

Extra:
1-1.5tbsp dried BITTER orange peel (normal orange peel can be too sweet)
1-2 tsp crushed coriander seeds

Yeast:
Cultured, or WLP401 (I think?) Belgian Wit II

Nice one thanks Dunkel, the reason for my above post, is i actually have a Hoegaarden on the way. Its a partial mash, ordered from Grumpys.

Your recipe looks like a beauty aswell

 

[dr K]

Of course you don't have to do 23 litre batches.
Two possible options, as you are already mashing 3kg of grain and presumably you have a boiler large enough to accomodate wort created.
One..make only a 15 -18 litre batch
Two..make 15 litres of higher gravity wort and dilute it into the fermentor (a la the beer cubes).
Before I got my 120 litre boiler I often brewed at 1060 plus and diluted to 1045.
Welcome to AG

Kurtz

 

[Stuster]

All grain....I say do it for the romance.

My new signature I think. :super: :lol:

 

[Paleman]

All grain....I say do it for the romance.

My new signature I think. :super: :lol:

Scarey stuff guys :blink:

I dont want to Allgrain for the romance. Just the taste. I love a tasty Ale.

But if i'm not cut for it....well me Mini Tun will keep me going :beerbang:

 

[pint of lager]

A few years back, I did a heap of kits and bits brews, thought those ag brewers were a bit crazy as the kits and bits brews were great, dead easy and took no time. But the ag brewers really knew their stuff and were happy to answer any question. They were very passionate about their beers and happy to share that enthusiasm.

Moved onto partials, wow, what a flavour change. Maybe those crazy ag brewers were onto the track of improved beers.

Around the same time, I went to the NSW State comps and stewarded. What an eye opener or taste bud opener. The slippery slope of ag was greased with the absolute best oil.

Now up to ag # 107, most of those 45 litre brews. Have met a great crew of people via brewing. Beer makers are such nice people, always happy to share information.

Brew the best gear you can with your knowledge, gear and skills.

 

[Paleman]

Beer makers are such nice people, always happy to share information.

Ive also found that too pol.

As a fisherman aswell, try and get as much advice from fellow fisherman, even close mates. Its like squeezing blood from a stone.

But ask a brewer for his fav recipe......its rattled off in no time, even sometimes with ways to improve it. :beer:

 

[barneyhanway]

I was doing large partials, because of lack of boil volume. Once I got a full size kettle I hung up the can opener for good.
Mashing 3kg and adding 1.5kg of extract, I'm not sure the taste difference will be vast - most of your fermentables are already from fresh grain so you're already tasting the difference.
Economy, simplification of process, ultimate control over the makeup and fermentability/body/character of your wort, self satisfaction... all great reasons to ditch the can of goop for good.

btw, 3kg of maris otter and a bit of crystal and you have a decent ordinary bitter right there - an all grain batch with what you currently mash.

 

[Voosher]

In any month I will normally do a minimum of 4 batches.
One is a kit - because that's what my brewing mate still insists on bringing (we do make some BIG sacrifices for our good friends). The return batch is a partial because it's the easiest way I have to produce 23l of reasonable beer.
I also do generally 2 AG half-batches for myself. It's a bit of a pain spending 4 hours for 30 stubbies but in my opinion it's worth it for several reasons - freshness, flexibility in taste, authenticity of flavours etc etc. The specialty grains can pretty much always be accommodated but DME or LME may go close to replacing the flavour of a bog-standard Australian Pale malt but they can't get close to a good Pils or Munich or Maris Otter.
At a push I can do a mid-gravity 23l AG but I'll be stepping up the equipment as soon as practical to get as much AG volume out of the brewery as I can.
If you're doing partials I think it's crazy not to step up to AG unless you have intractable obstacles like space or cost... or SWMBO???
Do AG... for the flavour (and the romance).

 

[andrewg]

So Allgrain !

How many more notches can i expect to step up, if i decide to rid my beers of extract ? And mash fully.......Im even in thoughts of growing my own hops, and using fresh hop cones/flowers. But on the main, will still use pellets as fresh as possible.

Is there a marked flavour difference. Enough to warrant the outlay of purchasing all the gear from scratch.

To those that have recently stepped up from partial mashing to allgrain, or still do both, what are the comparisons ?

Paleman
Like many how have gone before you, you will make the transition from kits to partials to all-grain. Hey your almost there anyway!!
Why bother you ask - Flavour and colour control - you just can't brew a straw gold pils or a wit with extract (believe me I've tried).
With all grain the brew-world is your oyster. Welcome to the dark side