All Grain - is it substantially better beer?

[goatchop41]

I really do try to ignore aggressive replies, and you have put up some good posts goatchop, but it is the yeast that makes the beer. If the OP is happy is what he is producing and to me it seems that time and space could be a problem, just keep doing what you are doing until in time he can go into all grain, or as others have suggested try out on some one elses rig.

*wort

Happy? The point still stands. The premise that 3V or the All-In-Ones produce better wort than BIAB is silly. The AI1s are virtually just BIAB but the bag is a metal pipe instead.
This is relevant for the OP, as they could get in to all grain easily by going out and getting a good BIAB setup for peanuts, as opposed to shelling out for AI1 or 3V system. If they listened to bollocks like what that user had said, then they would think that good all grain wort requires an expensive setup to produce, and may be scared away from it

 

[user3673]

I'll put a different spin on it with a question, might seem strange but bear with me.

Do you cook? If so what type of cook are you? The kind that grabs a kit adds the meat and veg cooks it up and makes a perfectly adequate meal? Or are you one that reads a bunch recipes and likes to experiment to make something from scratch, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but part of it is the experience?

Both are perfectly fine, just horses for courses. I suspect if you are the latter AG is for you, if not just keep on doing what you are doing, it clearly works for you

 

[krz]

I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it........

Yeah, its worth it.
Think about fresh bread vs yesterdays bread, notice a difference?

I havent been All grain that long, about 6 months, but the results are astounding.
I brewed fresh wort for about 3 years using SS Brewtech and temp control, good yeast etc....
I was happy with the taste.

When I finally moved to all grain, I was convinced after the first brew.
Extremely better. I look forward to each "next brew day"

 

[MHB]

Scope - That's what AG gives you, a couple of replies have touched on it pretty well talking about cooking or baking. My favorite is its like coffee, you an instant or an espresso man?
Instant gets the job done but I have a baby espresso machine, I can go and bother a couple of local roasters (you think AG brewers are a bunch of obsessed monomaniacs - try coffee roasters...) I can play around with the same beans roasted differently - well that's another whole thread, if not forum.

Scope is also a two way street, you can go to some pretty amazing places, but you can screw the pooch pretty royally to. You get more options and control, but you have to use more skill and knowledge, its a fun journey if its one you want to take.
Mark

goatchop41
I don't agree, the modern iteration of BIAB was developed as a "cheap" alternative to (mainly) the Braumeister.
Unless you can get the same step mash and programable features that the better all in 1 units bring, BIAB is at best a poor second choice. Not saying you cant make good, even great beer with pretty basic equipment - you can!
If you want to be able to reproduce a recipe, maybe make minor tweaks in pursuit of perfection, nothing beats a BM.
3V or other more evolved systems give you options that you simply don't get with a basic BIAB setup.

I would recommend to anyone starting out in AG, that BIAB is a great starting point, learn the basics see if its a hobby for you.
But BIAB is far from the be all and end all option.
M

 

[goatchop41]

I don't agree, the modern iteration of BIAB was developed as a "cheap" alternative to (mainly) the Braumeister.
Unless you can get the same step mash and programable features that the better all in 1 units bring, BIAB is at best a poor second choice. Not saying you cant make good, even great beer with pretty basic equipment - you can!
If you want to be able to reproduce a recipe, maybe make minor tweaks in pursuit of perfection, nothing beats a BM.
3V or other more evolved systems give you options that you simply don't get with a basic BIAB setup.

I would recommend to anyone starting out in AG, that BIAB is a great starting point, learn the basics see if its a hobby for you.
But BIAB is far from the be all and end all option.

You're conflating two different issues here - the quality of the wort and the ease of producing the wort.

I absolutely agree that my Guten is much more pleasurable and easy to use than the BIAB with an urn that I was doing previously, but the OP's question was does it make better beer? (and by extension of that, does it make better wort?). The answer to that question is that no, 3V and AI1s don't inherently make better wort/beer - they make the exact same product, it's just easier on an AI1 (and actually harder/more time consuming on 3V). There's very few things that you can't do with a BIAB setup (particularly electric) - you can step mash, you can kettle sour, you can do reiterated mashes, you can recirculate if you really want to.
As I said, I agree that AI1s they make the brewing process easier, but do you truly believe that AI1s or 3V systems inherently make a superior wort to a BIAB setup?

(P.S. Nowhere was it stated that BIAB was a be all and end all option. Merely that it is capable of exactly the same production quality of higher end systems, at a fraction of the price)

 

[goatchop41]

@MHB has hit the nail of the head with the scope part of it.
Using kits limits your options when it comes to controlling fermentability, control over all elements of your grain bill, tweaking recipes to suit your personal taste, etc. All grain just gives you the theoretical ability to control pretty much every aspect of the wort that you are going to use to make your beer

 

[koshari]

There is another option to explore which gives you some of the best of both worlds and what i have basically settled on tor the last 12 monts. And that is partial grain brewing. I pretty much use cans for my bitterness and then add steeped crystal malt / roasted barly and make up the rest with dry malt extract. I also dry hop my pales with a cascade and galaxy mix.

I find steeping grain adds a heap more body, flavour and head retention.

Ians brewing spreadsheet is a great guide to get close to particular styles.

 

[AJ80]

My two cents would be to buy a $20 19L stainless pot from Big W and a BIAB bag from one of the sponsors. That's enough equipment to brew small AG batches BIAB style (12-13L). Brew 2 or 3 batches and work out if the resulting beer is worth your time and effort. If not, you've not spent much money. If yes, this is equipment you'll keep on using regardless. I think it's worthwhile trialling things before taking the plunge and buying an all in one vessel.

The big plus of AG is the control you'll have over your recipe development. You'll be able to make very fine tweaks to recipes that K&K or extract brewers just can't. That's really only if you're interested in the creative side of brewing. I've had many many fantastic K&K and extract beers in the past. Sanitation, yeast pitch rate and controlling the fermentation are more important than how you obtain your extract (mash or tins of goo).

 

[chesl73]

My two cents would be to buy a $20 19L stainless pot from Big W and a BIAB bag from one of the sponsors. That's enough equipment to brew small AG batches BIAB style (12-13L). Brew 2 or 3 batches and work out if the resulting beer is worth your time and effort. If not, you've not spent much money. If yes, this is equipment you'll keep on using regardless. I think it's worthwhile trialling things before taking the plunge and buying an all in one vessel.

The big plus of AG is the control you'll have over your recipe development. You'll be able to make very fine tweaks to recipes that K&K or extract brewers just can't. That's really only if you're interested in the creative side of brewing. I've had many many fantastic K&K and extract beers in the past. Sanitation, yeast pitch rate and controlling the fermentation are more important than how you obtain your extract (mash or tins of goo).

I second this recommendation. I did a few kit beers and just didn't like it much, as a mate said, they have that 'home brew' taste. So I bought the above mentioned 19L cheap pot with a grain bag and a few bits and pieces and never looked back. Just do it on the stove top and taste the difference. Difference is massive in my view. Could only brew about 10L of beer so after a few years moved to a 1 vessel system (Guten) which is easier, brews more beer and I don't get splashes of hot wort baked into the stove... missus was never happy with that!

 

[DU99]

with all grain the amount of selection of grain's/hops and the forum's that are available for help people should be getting a better beer.If you bit sloppy/lax in making AG regardless of process/equipment of cause it will be sub standard..

 

[yankinoz]

goatchop41
I don't agree, the modern iteration of BIAB was developed as a "cheap" alternative to (mainly) the Braumeister.
Unless you can get the same step mash and programable features that the better all in 1 units bring, BIAB is at best a poor second choice. Not saying you cant make good, even great beer with pretty basic equipment - you can!
If you want to be able to reproduce a recipe, maybe make minor tweaks in pursuit of perfection, nothing beats a BM.
3V or other more evolved systems give you options that you simply don't get with a basic BIAB setup.

With BIAB step mashes are more work than in a Braumeister, but not by much. Mash in the kettle. For long rests I put it in an insulated box.Use a colander ring below the bag. Use direct heat to raise temperature. Alternatively, hot water or decoction mashes can be done much the same way as in a Braumeister.

Okay, it's not programmable short of jerry-rigging some sort of controls.

One potential quality drawback of BIAB is that it would be hard to exclude oxygen throughout. I sometimes use Campden tablets in the mash water

 

[philrob]

Does it matter?
You make beer either way.
If you are happy, that's what I call a result.
OK, well, if you want to enter your beers in competitions, you most likely you will need to go to All Grain, because a kit brew never was, and never will be, Best in Show.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

With today's modified malts the question would be is a step mash really necessary, my brew rigs have programmable steps but I now never use them. As an enthusiastic home brewer with a newly acquired BM I used to step mash, 4 or 5 steps, never bother now as Randy Mosher says in one of his books it can lead to more troubles than advantages.

Does it matter?
You make beer either way.
If you are happy, that's what I call a result.
OK, well, if you want to enter your beers in competitions, you most likely you will need to go to All Grain, because a kit brew never was, and never will be, Best in Show.

They do have comps for the best kit beer, they can be tweaked up to be very presentable, though never bothered myself. But as you say happiness is in the eyes of the beer holder, kit or otherwise.

 

[Doctor Jay]

I think it’s worth it. The way I look at it is it’s like the difference between packet mix cakes and home made cakes. Packet mixes are good, but home made, when done right are way better and more rewarding.

 

[Nick667]

I'm very close to making the jump from Extract kits to all grain, but I am still not wholly convinced that the cost (will be buying a Robobrew) and the time sink of a brew day is worth it.

I can knock over a perfectly adequate and tasty extract brew day in an hour after work. Will spending 5+ hours using a robobrew (and the cost in buying one) really make beer that is chalk and cheese better and completely justifies the time/cost?

This is probably a really dumb and obvious question to most, but I really want to be sure as I am quite happy with the beers I have been making recently.

I already have a kegerator, 3x kegs and a fermentation fridge, so this is really the last jump for me. Cheers

I brewed for decades on and off kit and kilo stuff and in later life ( sigh! ) I got back into it with the goal of making it taste better or I would just toss the whole lot in the bin. So I started with kits again and then extracts, liquid malts ect. and finally landed on a really basic BIAB system for not much money as I feel this is a factor and many people spend a lot of money on this hobby.
I guess that I have now run something close to 100 AG brews through and tweaked it here and there and usually get a really good product to the point that friends and others cant believe that it is ' home brew ' ,I have even been asked if I want to sell it and that has to .be the ultimate compliment. So for me it has been worth it and it grown into an amazing hobby that I really enjoy. I can troll the internet for any type of beer that comes to mind as apposed to trolling the shelves looking for a can that might suit.
Also I mash in the avo or evening and do the boil the next morning so it doesnt have to be a major time waster.
Hope it helps a bit.

 

[Dozer71]

One potential quality drawback of BIAB is that it would be hard to exclude oxygen throughout. I sometimes use Campden tablets in the mash water

The oxygen exposure is not a big deal at that stage as boiling gets rid of a lot of it - hence oxygenating prior to pitching yeast. Also, the exposure to oxygen is no different from BIAB to BM (just a fancy BIAB) and probably less than 3V as not transferring the wort between vessels.
Campden tablets help get rid of the chlorine/chloromines.

 

[Hermies]

Does it matter?
You make beer either way.
If you are happy, that's what I call a result.
OK, well, if you want to enter your beers in competitions, you most likely you will need to go to All Grain, because a kit brew never was, and never will be, Best in Show.

what about a kit and a kilo would that win a prize in a beer comp ?

 

[PaulS]

The big advantage with all-grain brewing is you have complete control over the production of the wort. You can control temperature and thereby control the fermentability of the wort. If you do a brew and feel it could do with a little more body for example, next time you brew it you can increase the temperature slightly and see if that gives you the beer you were after. If you are brewing with extract or a pre-made wort, you have no control over that, it has already been done for you.

There are a few comments in books and articles about medal winning beers that were brewed with extract, but they would be in the minority I would think.

Don't forget too that all-grain brewing and kit brewing are at either end of a scale, they aren't simply the only two options. Just because you don't do all-grain doesn't mean you have to use an off the shelf kit. You can still make up your own recipe, or try someone else's, simply by replacing the base malt and mash with extract, steep the specialty grains instead of mashing them (some brewers do this even with an all-grain mash), and the rest of the process is the same.

 

[Doctor Jay]

One potential quality drawback of BIAB is that it would be hard to exclude oxygen throughout. I sometimes use Campden tablets in the mash water

This is irrelevant, you want to add oxygen into the wort to help the yeast feed.

 

[5teve]

This is irrelevant, you want to add oxygen into the wort to help the yeast feed.

It is relevant if you are practicing low dissolved oxygen (LODO) brewing techniques through the entire brewing process.