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All extract no grain

Discussion in 'General Recipe Discussion' started by Tussiner, 10/8/18.

 

  1. Tussiner

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    Posted 10/8/18
    How do you think this will go with no grains for an amercan ipa?

    1.5kg amber lme
    1.5kg extra light lme
    1.2kg Reinheitsgebot Liquid Extract Enhancer
    500gm dex
    13gm magnum

    Boiled all malts 45 mins with magnum in 5L water
    final volume 9.2L
    added 60gm citra with 15 mins left
    added 50gm simcoe Lupulin and 60gm citra at flameout
    Whirlpool 4.5 mins
    stood for 15 mins lid on
    added 500gm dextrose to fermenter
    strained wort into fermenter
    topped up 24L
    added 15gm American ale yeast morgans
    Dry hopped 100gm citra last 4 days
    Og: 1.062
    Ibu: 48
    Est abv: 6.5%
     
  2. MHB

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    Posted 10/8/18
    I don't get quite the same numbers, OG comes in around 1.059, so not too far off.
    The only thing that would be a concern for me would be your hop utilisation in the boil, the 9.2L boil would have a gravity of 1.145 (give or take). I suspect you wont get enough bitterness.
    I found it a good idea to match the boil gravity to the final diluted gravity (~1.060) 1.5kg of extract will get you pretty close.

    The other minor concern being the FG, to get to 6.5% ABV you need pretty close to 80% attenuation, asking that of US-05 (in any packet) might be pushing it. A touch of nutrient wouldn't hurt, but I would think of choosing a bit more aggressive yeast (say S-04) at that high a gravity there will be plenty of body left no matter what you use.

    The rest is all about taste (personal), your call. For mine I would think the Simcoe and Citra might be standing a bit too long to give their best - about 20 minutes, I would think of bringing that back to around 10 minutes.

    Haven't come across the "1.2kg Reinheitsgebot Liquid Extract Enhancer" a quick google and it looks to me that its a really clever bit of badge engineering (just LME with a better name - and price?) - would like to hear more about it if its anything out of the ordinary.

    Did notice the term "strain". I just kegged the tail end of an imperial AIPA, the last 10L was all hop tea (hop sludge really), so ran it through a strainer - compared to the un-strained portion its a bit of a dog.
    I have it on good authority that its oxygen harm - something that highly hopped beers are particularly sensitive to.
    Perhaps carefully syphoning the wort might give a better beer.
    Mark
     
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  3. Tussiner

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    Posted 11/8/18
    Thanks for the detailed response. Im new to homebrewing and dont really understand the first paragraph about hop utilization.
    What i do at flameout is throw hops in and put the pot in an ice bath. Whirlpool is in there and let it sit for the remainder 15 mins with the lid on. Did this with a previous brew (all mosaic) and it turned out delicious. Also i am bottling so i raised abv according to bottle priming by 0.3%

    The extract enhancer is a mangroves jacks craft series pouch which i picked up for $10.20 from the local store. I think your right that its just clever packaging and just lme. But it does say it boosts body which i was going for.

    And are you suggesting i dont strain wort into fementer and just pour it in hops and all for a better product/flavour? I was under the impression that the hops will have done their job after whirlpool and sitting in ice bath for 15 mins.

    Cheers
     
  4. Tussiner

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    Posted 11/8/18
    What would be the difference between standing for 10 mins vs 20 mins?
    And do you think it would be to sweet? I was just going by the 48 ibus that that should be fine
     
  5. MHB

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    Posted 11/8/18
    Hops contain Alpha Acid and a couple of thousand other interesting bits - but in brewing bitterness is mainly concerned with AA. Magnum is a reasonably high AA hop, the one my local is selling has 14.8% AA.
    Bitterness can be equated to the amount of Alpha Acid in solution, roughly 1mg/L is 1IBU (1/1000g/L). This isn't exact but will do for a working assumption.
    The other really important thing to remember is that IBU's are measured in the finished beer (in the glass).

    Now this is where it starts to get complicated.
    Alpha acid is insoluble, when we boil Alpha Acid some of it gets rearranged into Isomerised Alpha acid that is soluble.
    Under ideal conditions about one third of the Alpha Acid is Isomerised, there are lots of different factors that affect the amount that converts, some of the main ones are
    Temperature - Hotter more and faster conversion.
    Time - Longer boils have higher conversion (up to ridiculously long times around 4-5 hours)
    Boil Vigor - A boil that is jumping around and turning over quickly will convert more than a limp simmer.
    Wort Gravity - The higher the gravity the less conversion
    Hop concentration - the more you add or the more concentrated, the less converts (as a %)
    pH - The higher the pH the more conversion but the bitterness tastes harsher and rougher, lower pH gives nicer tasting beer.
    There are more - but add them all together and you get Utilisation, basically how much of the AA you add turns into IsoAlpha.
    Just to make things even more interesting, there is an upper limit for IsoAA solubility at 20oC its about 100 IBU.
    Iso Alpha is also really sticky, it sticks to yeast, trub, filters, fermenter walls, the glass..., what we have at the end of the boil can fall by 30% by the time it ends up in the glass.
    My personal opinion is that the best hop calculations are really an educated guess, unless you have a pretty good lab the best answer is a Goldilocks not enough, too much and just right! Sure use a calculator but know the answer is an approximation and for gods sake don't quote decimal places that's just silly, even +/-5 IBU is pretty brave.

    In a home brew getting 25% Utilisation would be pretty good.
    If you have 13g of Magnum with an AA% of say 14.8% you have 13*14.8%=1.924g of AA (1924mg)
    If you got 25% Isomerisation that's 1924*25%=481mg
    If that was diluted into 24L, 481/24=20mg/L or 20IBU At Most. doing a 45 minute boil, at high gravity... I doubt you will get that much.

    Sure your late hops will add some, but not I suspect another 28IBU's.

    On the second question.
    The hops added early (the Magnum) loose almost all of their aroma, its volatile and boils off, most if not all of the hop taste is also broken down in the boil.
    From that we can work out that we get more aroma from the latest/coolest hop additions, we also get more taste from the later hop additions.
    Where it gets a bit ticklish is deciding when to add the late hops to get the character we want. For taste hops it is generally thought that somewhere between 10-20 minutes is best. You get measurably more flavour components at 20 minutes from the end, but it isn't the same taste a lot of people think its rougher more abrasive flavour than you would get from the same hops added at 10 minutes and at 20 minutes any aroma will be lost, at 10 some is retained.

    The right answer is the one that works for you, you need to brew any beer a couple of times taste critically and experiment until you get the beer you want.
    Have lots of fun!
    Mark
     
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  6. Tussiner

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    Posted 11/8/18
    Thanks again. The science is a bit much for my brain to figure out at this stage of my early brewing career but i can kinda understand what you are saying. Need to do a bit of research.

    Fyi hop aa%:
    Magnum 12.2%
    Citra 13.1%
    Simcoe Lupulin 26.9%

    Another question; If ive added my flavour hops 15 mins from end of boil does that equate to 35 mins seeing as though i let it sit while chilling for an additional 20 mins? Has most flavour and all aroma has been lost? Or does the flavour get locked in once the temperature falls beneath a certain degree?
     
  7. MHB

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    Posted 11/8/18
    Short answer is - everything happens faster hotter.
    That includes isomerisation, so you get more bitterness from the hops if they are boiled longer.
    So yes with the high alpha hops, 15 minutes of boiling followed by around another 20 in the whirlpool and stand will make more Iso Alpha, perhaps considering the very high alpha in the Lupin even the 28IBU predicted.

    Just suspect that - well look at the Citra, added at 15 to go, whirlpool and stand another 20 minutes at boiling or close to. call it 30 minutes at boiling in total - you are going to loose all or most aroma and most of the taste.

    Hops are the most expensive part of this type of brew, just looks like a lot of it is being wasted, move taste and aroma hops to the finish end and you will get more use out of them.
    Mark
     
  8. Tussiner

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    Posted 11/8/18
    Thanks heaps mark. Answered alot of questions here for me. Wish i had your address so i could send you a couple of tasters to say thanks.
     

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