Ag Brewery - From Scratch...

[kook]

It's only a few weeks now till I leave the UK, on my long trip home to Perth. When I return I'm looking to start building a well designed all grain system as soon as possible. My main reason for posting is to get ideas about how other AHB members might do this differently, and as a reference if other people want to build a similar system.

What changes to this design would you make to ensure you had a nice and easy brew day?

What can you not do without in your brewery now that you've added to the system?

Basically, if you could build your ideal AG system from scratch, what would you do? :huh:

I'm trying to keep it all pretty simple to begin with, using gravity from the HLT and sticking with simple infusion mashes to begin with. I've also tried to keep things modular incase I want to upgrade to HERMs, add further automation, hopbacks or any other extra bits along the way.

Anyway, my design ideas are below:


Supplier Key

TD: TC Direct (www.tcdirect.co.uk)
NB: Northern Brewer (www.northernbrewer.com)
B3: MoreBeer (www.morebeer.com)
WI: West Instruments (www.westinstruments.com)


Kettle

Parts:
70L Robinox Stock Pot, 45cm x 45cm
Bazooka Screen (NB:7547)
Weldless SS 1/2" NPT Bulkhead Fitting (B3:WL105)
1/2" Full Port SS Ball Valve (B3:H602)
1/2" MPT Male CPC QD (B3:H501B)
Weldless SS Sight Glass Kit (B3:WL121)

Current plan is to purchase a 70L Robinox pot and fit it out with a Weldless SS gate connected to a quick disconnect. A Bazooka screen inside should help to filter out any hops and crap left in the kettle.

The sight glass should assist in measuring volumes, though I am concerned about this becoming blocked with hops or particulate. Has anyone had any experience with these fitted to a boiler?

I'm still confused about what to use for a burner. I want HP gas, and I'm unsure whether to go "NASA" or Gameco. Either way I want to fix the burner to my brewframe, and possibly hard plumb the regulator and gas line till quite close to the bottle. I like the idea of the HP100LP having a piezo starter. Has anyone fitted this type of burner to a frame successfully?


HLT

Parts:
50L Converted Keg (Already Purchased)
1/2" MPT Male CPC QD (B3:H501B)
Weldless SS Sight Glass Kit (B3:WL121)
2400w Element, 1" BSP, 22cm Length (Tobins:3252AG624)
200mm, 6mm diameter, 3wire PT100 Probe with Pot Seal (Already Purchased, TD:514-207)
6.0mmx1/2" BSPT SS Compression Fitting (Already Purchased, TD:875-494)
Temperature Controller - Single Loop Basic (Already Purchased, WI:6100-1-1-0-0)

As I already have a converted keg, I figure this is an ideal candidate as a HLT. I will fit a 2400w element, controlled via a PT100 based temperature controller. Probe will be permanently mounted in the side of the keg using a compression fitting. This should allow me to accurately control HLT temperature for mash and boiling (ie, sanitising CFWC) purposes.

I intend to fit a CPC QD on to the end of an existing BSP valve. Does anyone know if the NPT threaded male QD will fit into the BSP female thread?


MLT

Parts:
57L KeepCold Round Cooler
Kewler Kitz XL Bulkhead (NB:8305)
Kewler Thermothingy (NB:7559)
1/2" Full Port SS Ball Valve (B3:H602)
1/2" MPT Male CPC QD (B3:H501B)
Thermometer 3" Face x 6" Probe, 1/4" dia (B3:MT500)
10" Stainless Steel Domed False Bottom (B3:AG404)
1/2" mpt x 3/8" SS Comp Fitting (B3:H624A) X2
Sparge Assembly Gravity (B3:ABE35)
1/2" MPT Male CPC QD (B3:H501B)
1/2" fpt x 5/8" SS Comp Fitting (B3:H625D)

I'm still a bit unsure about my plans for the mash tun. At the moment, I'm intending to use a 57L modified round cooler. I've considered using a keg, or 50L pot but I can't justify the cost for what most. Most of the arguments for stainless tuns is due to direct heating and HERMs. I don't see why I can't still use HERMs later without any issues.

The main reason for looking at a cooler is due to the insulation and low cost. It works out to around half the cost of an SS pot. I'd like to hear others opinions though as to whether they think it would be better to use SS.

I'm planning on fitting a 10" domed false bottom using 3/8" copper tubing and SS compression fittings. Does anyone have one of these coolers? Would a 12" bottom suit it better? Any opinions as to whether 3/8" tubing will reduce flow too much in the tun?

Also intend on fitting a thermometer through the side of the cooler using a Zymico Thermothingy kit. I'm debating this though as some of the fittings appear to be brass (which I'm trying to avoid on the system).

I intend to drill a hole through the lid and mount the sparge assembly using rubber grommets, so I can slide it up and down dependant on the mash level. I will cut the brass fitting off the top of the unit, and fit an SS compression fitting and male CPC QD.


Chilling / Aeration

Parts:
Chillus Convolutus (B3:WC90)
Stainless in-line Oxygenation Assembly (B3:E390)
1/2" MPT Male CPC QD (B3:H501B) X2
1/2" fpt x 5/8" SS Comp Fitting (B3:H625D)
1/2" ID Tubing - Silicone (B3:H985)

Plan is to fit an SS compression fitting on the inlet of the chiller, and fit a QD to the compression fitting. I will run a short length of silicone tubing directly from the output of the chiller to the input of the Oxygenation assembly. I will remove the 1/2" barb output on the oxygen assembly, and fit another male QD.


Pump

Parts:
March Pump, 230V (Already Purchased)
1/2" Full Port SS Ball Valve (B3:H602)
1/2" MPT Male CPC QD (B3:H501B) X2
Stainless full coupler - 1/2" (B3:H631)

Plan is to fit a QD on the input to the unit using a coupler, and then a QD on the output, attached via a 1/2" full port valve. This allows me to restrict the flow of liquids through the pump, and eases connectivity.


Connectivity (Liquid and AC)

For all liquid transfers from HLT through to fermenter, silicone hoses (B3:H985) with female CPC QDs (H501E) will be used. This allows me to have say 4-5 hoses and use them on pretty much any part of the system. While hard plumbing does look cool, I'd prefer something more modular as I believe it will be easier to keep clean.

For bringing water into the HLT and CFWC I intend to mostly use hard plumbing. Ideally I want just a single water input point (ie, a standard hose connector) with SS valves to direct the water to either the HLT or CFWC. I'd also like to fit a permanent 2 stage water filter prior to the HLT. I figure most of this gear is available in hardware stores back home, so it's not worth ordering off the web.

Any 240v AC devices will be connected to a control panel using IEC connectors. This keeps it modular and clean, and easy to replace if an item fails. I intend to use standard 3.5mm jacks for connecting the PT100 sensors, once again to keep it modular and clean.

In the future this also means it'll be easier to expand to other options such as a heat exchanger and solenoids for controlling sparge water.


Brew Stand

Obviously, if I'm going to go to this much detail with the brewery I want a bling-bling stand :lol: . I'm still a bit unsure about the current design, and it's sure to change. There are pictures attached anyway outlining the frame style and dimensions.

It's basically two tier, with the HLT, MLT and Kettle fitting from left to right. The HLT will be mounted on the extended section to allow gravity feed to the MLT.

I'm considering using 40mm square box steel for most of the frame. The MLT, Kettle etc will all be fixed using 40mm angle iron, bolted to the main frame. I figure the 36mm lip that the angle iron will create will assist in ensuring that I don't have the kettle fall over.

I intend to bolt the HLT to the frame directly, but would prefer to keep the kettle and MLT easy to remove for cleaning.

 

[berazafi]

Just out of interest, what do you estimate the total cost to be

 

[kook]

Just out of interest, what do you estimate the total cost to be

I'm hoping to get all it for under AUD$3k, without the stand. I don't know how much the materials cost for the stand :blink:

I figure it's a once-off "investment" which should pay for itself after a year or two of brewing.

 

[Ash in Perth]

my brewry cost me about $1200 inlcuding mill. Herms system with all stainless fittings. 200W element for HLT, 3 ring burner for kettle. march pump, 6m SS CFC...

My Brewery

 

[T.D.]

I'm not sure if some of the appeal for you is being able to build it yourself, but if you are going to pay that sort of money, you might be worth looking at the Grain and Grape AG system (very similar to the B3 sculptures). I can't remember the exact figure but I think it was around the $3k mark and its a full HERMS setup. Its ready to roll right off the rack too. Might be worth contacting them.

Certainly is an impressive system you have planned though! It would be good fun building it.

Good luck!

 

[Tony]

Hey we could start up a magazine like Street Machine magazine but call it

AUSSIE BREW RIG

All the hottest, most radical brewing contraptions in australia.

 

[warrenlw63]

Bikini-clad strumpets lying on the HLT. :wub:

Warren -

 

[GMK]

Kook

i like your design - but would change 2 things...

Make teh kettle at least 90ltrs and teh HLT 70 ltrs.

This will make it easier to double batches - i usually only brew AG in double batches as it is more time efficient than doing single batches.
Adds maybe an extra hour to get a second batch.

The 56ltr Keep Cold is good - but not so good for single batches/low gravity double batches as the grain bed height to width ratio - (large diameter of teh keep cold) can effect the efficiency.

I currently use a 36ltr Rubbermaid as a compromise.
With this i have to fly sparge as there isnt enough room to batch sparge.

Hope this helps.

 

[Justin]

I wouldn't worry too much about the bazooka screen in the kettle unless you use whole hops. On a big wide pot like that you should get a good whirlpool so the trub/hops collect in the middle and be able to drain very low before getting any crap.

As for a sight gauge I wouldn't worry on the kettle. A dipstick does a much better job and is easier to clean.

For the burner, either will do the job easily. I have a NASA but I do like the look of the Gameco one and they look much better quality. FWIW you should be able to rig a piezo for the NASA if you want.

For the mash tun, you can HERMS if you want with a cooler mash tun, but I bet you don't find it necessary. If you do want to step mash it might be worth your while to buy a hand held immersion element. For what you are paying for things like premade weldless fittings, what's another $70. But nice choice on the esky MT, much better than a SS one.

I probably wouldn't bolt your HLT to the stand because it really doesn't need it. Plus you will always leave some liquid in the bottom. But it's up to you.

If your budgeting $3000 for your system you should be able to buy this set up several times over I'd say.

Best of luck.
Justin

 

[Guest Lurker]

I run a 50 l HLT and 80 L kettle and easily do double batches so I think your volumes are big enough, especially with careful control on the boil. I agree with Justin, whatever you put on the kettle inlet, you will end up ripping it off in frustration in the middle of a brew. You could look at Mashmaster to save some money on a few of those components.

 

[ant]

Hi kook, I'm also in the acquisition and "detailed design" phase of a new AG rig, and my 2c FWIW...

MPT QD go into a female BSP thread OK - I'm using a wrap or two of teflon tape, and no leaks.

Chilling - I've gone for a plate chiller (Mashmaster unit) based on decreased water consumption - a MQD goes straight into this and avoids a compression fitting. Just another option!

Hoses - I've also gone 1/2" ID silicone hoses with FQD on each, mainly to allow me to take apart and clean easier than a hard-plumbed system, but have assigned a hose for each function, to avoid having to change hoses when they have hot water/sticky wort in them.

Pump - If you considered a 2nd pump, you could use one for water only (underletting mash, sparging) and the other for all wort transfer. Probably more importantly, it would allow you to go 1 tier, eliminating implicit dangers of hot water at head height.

Frame - where are you looking to locate any control panel? I'd recommend having any electrics, etc separated from the "wet" process (eg like in Asher's frame); this way there aren't worries about pump getting wet, etc.

I'll second GMK's call about increasing the size of the kettle and HLT - might as well go for a rig that allows you the option of double batches (I'll be using Robinox 98L).

It certainly sounds like it will be a rig to be envied! :beerbang:

Ant

 

[Asher]

Kook that shopping list sounds allot like mine....



- only big difference is I went the high mash tun and chose to pump hot liquor - this way I can automate the sparge water easily with a float switch in the tun.
- I'm also upgrading my kettle to a 70l Robinox pot.
- to make brewday easier... The only thing I'd change with my brewery would be the HLT size (but I built a stand alone electric HLT as seen in picture instead). If doing a 40l batch, a 50l HLT needs refilling and heating between the dough-in and sparge. I'd like a dual electric/gas HLT that held around 100l. Can use electric element on timer to get water up to dough in temps. Then during brewday, use gas to adjust temps as required. With 100 litres You'll have enough water to dough in (28l), sparge (35l) & enough clean-up water to recirculate through your pump to sterilise before chilling & at the end of the session...

- When you hit Perth pop on over and check mine out If you'd like (I'm in Europe till middle of October)

- I've seen some very flash round coolers at a sports shop in Cannington of late. I'f you haven't bought one yet they would be worth a look..

Asher for now

 

[big d]

Ive been using a gravity system for along time now but with a move looming im chucking the stand and will start all over again.More than likely buy a march pump and redesign my whole system but at this stage im not sure as to what i will build so will keep an eager eye on this post.
Only thing that will be a must in my stand is that it is stainless steel.Just gotta have the bling factor in it.

Cheers
Big D

 

[kook]

my brewry cost me about $1200 inlcuding mill. Herms system with all stainless fittings. 200W element for HLT, 3 ring burner for kettle. march pump, 6m SS CFC...
My Brewery

Ash, I've noticed in your thread that you got pretty much all your welding done for $50, and picked up most the stainless gear in Perth for bargain prices. Did you know people at the vendors, or just walk in off the street? If it's much cheaper to buy all the compression fittings, ball valves and stuff in Perth I'll skip all that on the order from B3.

Make teh kettle at least 90ltrs and teh HLT 70 ltrs.
The 56ltr Keep Cold is good - but not so good for single batches/low gravity double batches as the grain bed height to width ratio - (large diameter of teh keep cold) can effect the efficiency.

Ken, I could go for the 98L Robinox, I'll see what the prices are like when I return. It sounds like it might be a viable option.
I'd hoped to keep the costs down on the HLT by re-using existing kit (the Keg). Anyone got any ideas for a cheap SS HLT?
Have you converted any of the 56L KeepColds? I saw your thread on converting the 36L (was very helpful!). Do you think a 10" or 12" false bottom will fit better?

I wouldn't worry too much about the bazooka screen in the kettle unless you use whole hops. On a big wide pot like that you should get a good whirlpool so the trub/hops collect in the middle and be able to drain very low before getting any crap.
As for a sight gauge I wouldn't worry on the kettle. A dipstick does a much better job and is easier to clean.
I probably wouldn't bolt your HLT to the stand because it really doesn't need it. Plus you will always leave some liquid in the bottom. But it's up to you.

Cheers Justin, I think I'll ditch both the screen and sight gauge. Keeps the cost down and should make things easier.
I should of been clearer, I intend on bolting it, but making it easy to remove the bolts for emptying at the end of the brew day. Might even use hinges?

MPT QD go into a female BSP thread OK - I'm using a wrap or two of teflon tape, and no leaks.

I might look into using BSP fittings then, as hopefully they're cheaper to buy back home. I'll just get all the QDs from B3 (and hose).
I looked into the chiller plates, but I'm still not confident about them compared to CFW chillers.
The main reason for using a single pump is to keep it simple at first. I may add a second further along the line. I'd considered single tier, but two seems like a much better option with a single pump.
I was going to locate the panel under the HLT, pretty much in the same position as Asher's. The outlet for the HLT will be on the side (ie, above the MLT) rather than at front, so it should keep water away from the electricals. I was planning on bringing the water in from the other side too.

- only big difference is I went the high mash tun and chose to pump hot liquor - this way I can automate the sparge water easily with a float switch in the tun.
- to make brewday easier... The only thing I'd change with my brewery would be the HLT size
- When you hit Perth pop on over and check mine out If you'd like (I'm in Europe till middle of October)
- I've seen some very flash round coolers at a sports shop in Cannington of late. I'f you haven't bought one yet they would be worth a look..

I thought about having the MLT up top, but I figured it'd be easy enough to use gravity, a float switch and a solenoid on the water outlet of the HLT when I wanted to automate sparging.
It sounds like a lot of sense for me to increase the HLT size, just need to find a suitable vessel with a suitable price
I'll drop you a PM when I get back. I don't return to Perth until mid October anyway, going on a journey around the US first :chug:
I haven't bought that yet, so I'll take a look when I return. Only bits I've got sofar are the pump, temp control gear and a converted keg which I used to use for extract / specialty grain brewing.

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

Kook, an impressive shopping list, I would'nt be too hasty in buying some of that gear on your US tour until you checkout the Perth avaiability and alternatives.
I would'nt bother with a sight glass in the kettle, would the bit of wort in it be boiled properly?
Lose the bazooka screen.
Go large as possible with all vessels, it will "future proof" your brewery.
A plate chiller is the way to go in Perth with the water situation, Mashmaster for $99,( he does nice big dial thermometers too.)
Stainless valves are available in Perth.
Save some cash and spend it on grain!
I'm sure the AHB and WCB boys would be happy for you to crawl all over their rigs for ideas and inspiration, you can even check out my poxy effort.

 

[GMK]

The keep cold 36ltr can take 12" False bottom easy - the bigger one is around 14"

Yep i have converted one 56ltr keep cold -
the keep colds have a 1/2" BSP Hole
- Rubbermaid is a weird size hole - 5/8BSP"

Hope this helps you out.

 

[kook]

So far, my planned changes are:

- Possibly use 98L kettle rather than 70L

- Look into a 70L vessel for the HLT, possibly sell the modified keg

- Buy almost all SS fittings+valves locally rather than B3/NB

- Look into having welding done on the vessels rather than using fittings and rubber o rings (cooler excluded of course)

- Scrapped the Bazooka filter and sight glass on the kettle

- 12" false bottom in MLT rather than 10"

- Attach the sparge assembly using a length of silicone and female QD, rather than adding the extra cost of a compression fitting to suit and another male QD

- Will buy the version of the oxygen assembly that comes without barbs (FE390A) as it's US$20 cheaper, and I was going to ditch one of the barbs anyway.

- Use a Mashmaster thermometer on the mash tun, hopefully the versions with the longer screw-in section will be available by then

- Will revise stand design, as it's still my original design for using Robinox pots for the HLT/MLT, and may be too tall with a cooler and keg.

 

[warrenlw63]

- Look into having welding done on the vessels rather than using fittings and rubber o rings (cooler excluded of course)

Kook.

Why the welding? Weldless/bulkhead fittings are nowhere near as problematic as they're made out to be. In fact they make a very easy DIY solution and I've never had one go pear-shaped on me yet.

If you do go the welding route make sure the welder in question knows his/her work. Over the years I've seen some totally "shit" jobs performed on various bits of equipment.

Remember you'll be nearly $400 out of pocket on a nice S/S pot in the first place. Bad welds are probably nearly impossible to fix. :unsure:

Warren -

 

[T.D.]

Regarding the false bottom I would buy the KeepCold cooler (whichever one you choose) first and then measure the inside properly. I have the 36L version and I can tell you it is spot on 12" in diameter, but the tap housing protrudes into the diameter at the bottom, so a 12" FB won't fit unless you cut into it. I have no idea what the 57L version is like, but if GMK says its 14" my bet is you'll be able to fit the 12" in with the tap housing. But to be sure it may be an idea to stagger the purchasing of those two parts.

Also, I would be extremely surprised if you will ever need more than 50L of mash or sparge water. Even for a 60L batch, you should not need more than 50L (assuming 12kg of grain, that means 36L of mash water and around 46L of sparge water). You will save yourself a significant amount of money if you make do with what you have already. I have a 30L urn for a HLT and I can happily do double batches.

 

[Justin]

Nice choice to use the Robinox pots Kook, what ever size you choose. Stainless or alu, doesn't matter. Lose the kegs. If I had my time again h34r:

Given what you were prepared to pay for the weldless fittings from B3/NB, if you source those parts yourself in Perth the savings made over what B3/NB charge for weldless kits you'll have bought your robinox pot with the savings (al least an alu one anyway).

If it helps, print out the pics of the weldless fitting from the more beer site and take that with you to the hose and fittings place. Describe that you are basically making a bulk head fitting and they will help you with the parts to make it work in no time.

Print out some photos of the Morebeer sculptures to show the guys there what your going to build. If you tell those guys your building a brewery and this is what it's going to look like they'll bend over backwards to help I bet.


Cheers, and good luck.