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jayse

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heres the average adelaide specs.
you can see its high in sodium and has not as much HCO3 as some would have you believe.
also the calcium is quite low.
as far as i can see the closest it is to any of the famous water supplys is london followed by edinburgh.

but because of the sodium content it seems unsuitable for burtonising.
mainly because high sodium and high sulphate don't work well together.
that would create a very harsh bitterness.

is there any way to decrease the sodium?


heres the specs anyway for now.
ca 27
mg 17
na 87
so4 57
cl 152
hCO3 63.4

Anyway does any here know much about water.
unlike some myths going around i think i could easily had more chalk to this.
but i won't to get rid of the sodium and up the calcium and sulphate.


any help anyone
cheers jayse
 

big d

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jayse just out of curiosity what are the measurements in.im assuming parts per million.
my chart says burton-on-trent has 630-820 ppm in so4 and 54ppm in na(sodium)
going by this adelaide water is quite low in sodium compared to burton.it would appear the chlorides are higher than anything on my chart.burtons are 16-36

cheers
big d
 

jayse

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iam not to worried about chlorides as they are not as important and easily removed.
yes it ppm the same as you read it in the palmer book or in pro mash.
yes the sodium in the trent is 54.
adelaide as i read it is 87.
so adelaide is higher in sodium and much much lower in everything else.
 

big d

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the only way i know of to reduce the sodium content would be to add water with low/nil sodium content.rain water, spring water ,de mineralized water but then you would have to have a lab to anyalize the new sodium content.and also how much do you add to a given amount.a lot of trial and error jayse.at the end of the day i reckon you gotta ask is it worth chasing these small amounts to chase a particular style.?

cheers
big d
 

jayse

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yeah with this water i think iam better making the most of it.
unless like you said dilute or just use straight rain water or even better R.O water and making it up to the specs i need.

really the reason i asked this question is to get some outside ideas..
Thats what i thought the only way to get less sodium in the water would be.

i think its a good water supply i just want to understand it better.
iam not doing this to create a spec. style but to produce the beer i want if you know what i mean
cheers jayse
 

wedge

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how would you add this in promash, jayse you dont have the values needed do you?
 

jayse

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type them in as i posted them there.
thats how you'll see the water profile thing come up
27
17
87
57
152
63.4

cheers jayse
 

GMK

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Jayse

What is wrong with making an Adelaide style?

Just lik ethe Barossa Style....
 

jayse

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nothing wrong with that ken. but thats not the question i was posing to everyone.
after all iv'e been doing that for my whole brewing career so far.
this thread wasn't meant to read as iam looking to make any perticular style as such.
but really just get a some freah ideas not really style related.
the main thing iam after is just some fresh ideas to tweak my personal style of pale which doesn't fit any pale ale style there really is around.
the water is fine for these beers iam making already.

the question is not. should i change the water?
but has anyone in adelaide added anything to the water to get a different result?
(again not talking about making the water like that of another supply but still a original supply with a little tweaking)

cheers jayse. does that all make sense to anyone?
 
J

Jovial_Monk

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I use rainwater and add gyspum, or buy spring water when the rainwater tank is dry.

To reduce sodium you would have to dilute, just about any sodium salt would be soluble. Boiling will get rid of chlorine, campden tabs will get rid of the chloramides the E&WS adds

Jovial Monk
 

jayse

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thanx tom.
how much gypsum do you use for per litre?

the only thing for a burton type water from my under standing is the sulphate and carbonate should be both equally balanced.
is this correct?
if so should you use equall amounts of chalk and gypsum?

jayse
 

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A couple of things to be careful of when comparing a water analysis to some quoted region water quality:

1) You need to check the charge balance. If the Adelaide water specs were given as averages, or if some units have been confused, then it may that the actual concentrations as specified couldnt physically be present in an actual sample of the water, because the total charges of the negative ions dont equal the total charges of the positive ions (ie the makeup given does not produce an electrically neutral water).

I checked the charge balance for your Adelaide specs and positive ions are within 0.5% of negative ions, so it looks like you have been given good data. Normally we would consider within 5% to be good enough.

2) Ions like Ca and Hco3 are often (usually) quoted in a laboratory analysis as "mg/l as CaCO3". So they do not give you the actual concentration of calcium ions, they give you the amount of CaCO3 required to produce that amount of calcium ions. This makes a big difference, if an analysis gave Ca as CaCO3, you would need to divide by 2.5 to get the actual Ca concentration.

So for example, if comparing with Ca in a quoted Burton water quality, you need to be sure that the Burton quoted concentration was "Ca concentration" not "Ca as CaCO3". The problem is that in some brewing texts this information has been lost, and you need to do a charge balance on the quoted chemistry to try to work out what the units were.

Anyway the shorter answer is that your Adelaide analysis looks valid and you cant precipitate sodium out and you need to be a bit wary of quoted region water chemistries.
 

Trough Lolly

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Jovial_Monk said:
[snip]
campden tabs will get rid of the chloramides the E&WS adds

Jovial Monk
JM,
Aren't campden tablets another name for Sodium Metabisulphate????

Does this result in a further increase in the Sodium content in the water if you use Campden tabs to reduce the chloramides? The Oz Craftbrewer digest has some interesting exchanges on the use of such chemicals in preserving beer life...

Jayse - If you want to reduce Sodium levels, use alternative filtered water such as springwater or fresh rainwater. You can't boil the stuff out.

As a rough guide, I use Palmer's table on Salts for Water Adjustment. 1 Gram per Gallon of these salts results in the following approx. changes:

CaCO3 (Chalk) = 105ppm Calcium and 158ppm of Carbonate
Gypsum = 61.5ppm Calcium and 147.4ppm of Sulphate
Calcium Chloride = 72ppm Calcium and 127ppm Chloride
Mag Sulphate (Epsom Salt) = 26ppm Magnesium and 103ppm Sulphate
Sodium Bicarb (Baking Soda) = 75ppm Sodium and 191ppm Bicarb

So, without getting too exact, 1 teaspoon of Gypsum in a 5 Gal Batch will increase the calcium level by 60ppm and sulphates will rise by 140ppm.

Chalk and Baking Soda raise your pH and Gypsum, Calcium Chloride and Epsom Salt lower your pH.

From what I've read, one of the most important factors in water quality (apart from obvious contaminants) is to ensure that you have sufficient Calcium and Sulphate in your water.
Calcium is an important mashing ion and it helps reduce haze in the brew - Palmer suggests that Calcium "...promotes clarity, flavor, and stability in the finished beer".
Sulphates tend to promote the dry bitterness and improve the hop bittering effect used in a pale ales and bitters. So, try some Gypsum in your mash and let the other ions be for the moment - then if you like what you've done, try adjusting pH and other ions but remember, water chemistry is not simply a matter of adding 3 drops of sinister sauce and expecting everything to remain in balance. Practice and keep notes on what you did...

Cheers,
TL
 

Trough Lolly

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By the way, here is the water report for Canberra - from the web:
Calcium - 4ppm
Magnesium - 1ppm
Bicarb - 12ppm
Sulphate - 1ppm
Sodium - 3ppm and
Chloride - 6ppm.
Perfect for Pilsners and pale ales, when I toss Gypsum in the mash!
Cheers,
TL
 

jayse

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thanx guys.
simon they are averages based on about 15 test they also give a max and min.
the HCO34 i worked out from what they gave as alkalnity as CaCO3.

trough lolly thanx for posting that stuff too. most of that iam reasonbly familar with
but thats the stuff i was hopping to drum up.

good work guys.
 
J

Jovial_Monk

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about 2 level tsp per 23L batch, jayse

Must admit I don't go overboard about water, though a pale ale I might add a level tsp Epsom Salts (MgSO4 heptohydrate) as well, a malty style I add 2 level tsp CaCl2 per 23L batch instead of the sulphates, a doppelbock I brewed back in Dec I added 1/3 tapwater to get some carbonate in the mash liquor

Jovial Monk
 

jayse

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thanz JM.
this is the stuff iam after.
that canberra water looks great by they way trough lolly.

iam half way into the boil for my paddle and my pump just shorted out half the house.
they are fuses too not breakers and i don't have any fuse wire.
anyway iam too gone to mess with anything right now.lucky the GPOS are seperate.
the pump has deffintly shat it self though it may have run dry i don't know i was'nt there at the time.
oh well i'll be seeing how well my CFC works with gravity soon.

jayse
 

JasonY

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Another one for comparison (if I havent cocked it up), this is for Canning in Perth. Thinking about playing about with it if I get bored ... still have to get off my ass and try adjusting pH before I worry about salts etc ... :)
  • Ca Min=2.4 Max=3.2
  • Mg Min=4.6 Max=6.0
  • Na Min=40 Max =50
  • SO4 Min=10 Max 12
  • Cl Min=73 Max=87
  • hCO3 ~5.5 from what promash works out....
 

Guest Lurker

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Where did that analysis come from Jason? The problem with the Perth water supply is it is blended from groundwater and surface water, and the blending ratio changes at different times and in different suburbs. I would have expected the Perth water to have a much bigger range than quoted in that analysis. There is an out of date range of analyses
Here
which makes Perth water look very crappy compared to the others in this thread.
 
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