adding pre-boiled hops to boil to save time

[butisitart]

i were wondering, and can't find anything on forum about if this is a good or bad idea, but,,,,

was thinking to boil the full term hops (eg 75mins) on the stove, followed by 2nd hops (eg 30mins)
WHILE
i'm doing my mash.
this would mean that when my mash goes to boil, if i time it all right,
then i would only need to boil for 15 mins to get rid of any small furry animals that i don't want in my fermenter. the already pre-boiled hops would get tossed in at the start of the boil and late additions (eg 5 mins) would still get thrown in as usual.

to get the timing right, you could take the hops off the stove if things started to lag on the mash, or extend the kettle boil time if need be.

upshot theory is that you would shorten the brew day by about an hour and save electricity, without any loss to the process.

any chemical reaction reasons why this won't work?? or other reasons??

 

[manticle]

What are you boiling them in?

All sorts of things can affect hop utilisation, including gravity, volume and solution.

Also there are multiple reasons for boiling wort beyond bittering.

 

[gap]

So you think the only reason to boil for 60 or 90 minutes has to do with the hops???

 

[MHB]

As above wort boiling does a lot more than just bitter beer.
Some of the main reasons are
Sterilising the wort - as you mentioned
Bittering the wort - and other hop related effects
Reducing excess protein - that takes time. The protein combines with polyphenols a lot of them from the hops
Driving off undesirable volatiles - mainly DMS but there are some others even from hops.

I think its a pretty bad idea, a good boil that reduces the wort volume by 10% (give or take a couple of %) makes for much better beer.

Again not for the first time - read this View attachment 02 - The function of wort boiling1.pdf
Then rethink your conclusions
Mark

 

[AJS2154]

This is an interesting question, one of those challenge the status quo type questions, which I always admire.

I will leave question to some of the more knowledgable brewers on this forum but from my observations, at least, boiling the wort changes the appearance and composition of the wort.....in addition to driving off undesireables. I did a wheat beer yesterday, 50% pilsner, and boiled it for 90 minutes. Whilst it was boiling it changed colour to a beautiful light tan colour, and the smell of the wort also changed.....more malty. Smelled beautiful by the finish, but smelled a bit like grain at start of the boil.

I have often wondered what would happen if I boiled the wort for 3 or 4 hours, rather than less time. I know I would have less liquor left, and the OG would be much higher, but what would happen to the flavour of the finished beer? Would it be like more concentrated, richer in flavour?

I copied this link, mate. Perhaps have a read. This will be interesting to me, I will watch with interest..

http://byo.com/malt/item/1650-wort-boiling-homebrew-science

Cheers, Anthony

 

[AJS2154]

Sorry Mark, we must have both been writing our responses simultaneously. didn't want it to look like I was ignoring your comments. Cheers, Anthony

 

[manticle]

Absolutely a longer boil will give a richer flavour.
Try making a wee heavy with just base malt and a minimum 3hr boil.

 

[Adr_0]

This is an interesting question, one of those challenge the status quo type questions, which I always admire.

I will leave question to some of the more knowledgable brewers on this forum but from my observations, at least, boiling the wort changes the appearance and composition of the wort.....in addition to driving off undesireables. I did a wheat beer yesterday, 50% pilsner, and boiled it for 90 minutes. Whilst it was boiling it changed colour to a beautiful light tan colour, and the smell of the wort also changed.....more malty. Smelled beautiful by the finish, but smelled a bit like grain at start of the boil.

I have often wondered what would happen if I boiled the wort for 3 or 4 hours, rather than less time. I know I would have less liquor left, and the OG would be much higher, but what would happen to the flavour of the finished beer? Would it be like more concentrated, richer in flavour?

I copied this link, mate. Perhaps have a read. This will be interesting to me, I will watch with interest..

http://byo.com/malt/item/1650-wort-boiling-homebrew-science

Cheers, Anthony

I will just leave this here... (courtesy of Crowmanz)


http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/17/short-shoddy-pt-2-a-5-gallon-batch-in-under-2-hours/

In addition to those stated above, there is caramelisation going on in the boil that is pretty handy. Hence Manticle's reference to long boil for a wee heavy.

Going back to the original post, if you're going to boil hops separately at least put some dried malt extract in with the boil.

 

[butisitart]

thanks all - another of my bright ideas down the gurgler...
question pretty much answered. i thought there may have been a reason for the normal process, but couldn't match keyword and search to get anything on the subject. (wrong keywords obviously)

thanks for all the links too - will check them all out over the afternoon.
cooking up a bock tomorrow. with a long boil -_-

 

[manticle]

Bock/doppelbock definitely another style that lends itself to an extended boil.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Scottish Ale's are another.

They like to have the first runnings boiled so they caramelis

 

[manticle]

I mentioned wee heavy a couple of posts back. You can make a beautiful, complex, rich WH a SMASH with just GP and EKG, extended boil, your favourite yeast and some maturation time.

 

[Adr_0]

I mentioned wee heavy a couple of posts back. You can make a beautiful, complex, rich WH a SMASH with just GP and EKG, extended boil, your favourite yeast and some maturation time.

Great, thanks. Way to ruin my brew plans...

 

[manticle]

I am a prick.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Great, thanks. Way to ruin my brew plans...

You life will change after you brew a proper Scottish Ale

They are the opposite of an IPA and can be hard to get right

 

[manticle]

OT but I was intending a wee heavy exactly like that this Easter. Ordered 10kg golden promise and some kent goldings from lhbs but their wyeast stocks are never great so I rang grain and grape to get some wy scottish.
They'd been bought out by a commercial* so doing a belgian quad instead (also 2.5 - 3 hr boil). Scottish next week or two when I can get the yeast.

*bought out of wy 1728, not bought out as in takeover.

 

[butisitart]

mmmm...
just ran the numbers through brewsmith for manticle's wee heavy. their style guide (along with jamil's brewing guide) both suggest a bit of roast barley to get the colour up (but no more than that).
gosh - i guess that means i'll have to make one of each. on a bloody long boil, of course

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Here is my Scottish Ale

Pillar Red

Batch Size (L): 22.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.88
Anticipated OG: 1.055
Anticipated EBC: 47.4
Anticipated IBU: 29.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


% Amount Name
---------------------------------------------------
82.1 4.00 kg. BB Ale Malt
13.3 0.65 kg. Weyermann Carared
4.1 0.20 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma
0.5 0.02 kg. JWM Roast Barley




Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. EKG Pellet 6.20 25.2 60 min.
16.00 g. EKG Pellet 6.20 4.5 20 min.

 

[Adr_0]

How do long boils (2-3hrs) go with head retention? I did a couple of 2hr boils (10yrs ago) and don't recall any issues, but I recall a pro brewer (unknown who) swapping stories with Craftbrewer about why their barleywine or strong, dark, long-boiled beer lacked head retention and they traced it down to the boil being too long. I will dig it up.

 

[manticle]

Have had some issues with over caramelising first runnings but not long boils.