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A Protien Rest

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Fish13

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http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;recipe=1499

I am about to brew this again this weekend with 1056 yeast and i am wondering if a protein rest at 58 degree's for 15 minutes and then 60 minutes at 68 degree's would improve it or possibly over complicate it?

I have changed it this time to 1kg of vienna and no dextrose. Change of yeast so many changes so i might aswell go the whole hog.

Anything else i should change?
 

kelbygreen

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from what I gather the new modified malts dont need a protein rest like they used to. I am not saying if it still benefits it or not ( i am not sure but willing to find out). 68 deg??? is this a typo??? if your cutting out the dextrose you would want to mash it lower to give you the same amount of FG. I never really go above 66. Is there a reason to mash so high?
 

MHB

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I think if you want to do a protein rest around 50-54 C would be better than 58 C (thats outside the Normal Protein rest temp range). Even with modern malt it helps get more low molecular weight protein into solution, which is one of the big head improving ingredients in beer, as well as reducing the amount of high molecular weight protein. High MW Protein contributes to haze and staling in beer.
Mark
 

manticle

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I protein rest most beers at 55 for about 5-10 mins. Nothing wrong if you know what you want. Why are you thinking it's a good idea?

The following has some info about step mashing and ideal ranges and respective enzymes

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...of-step-mashing. Personally I'd see 58 as approaching low sacch rest temps but enzyme ranges are not walled-in cities.
 

kelbygreen

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Thats the points I am looking for mark. I knew there is a reason behind it or they wouldnt do it I guess.

yeah I normally dont do a protein rest. I am finding my beers lose head very fast lately. I put it down to dirty glasses but soaked in sodium perc and rinse well then rinse with vinegar and hot water has not helped at all. Also washed in bicarb and vinegar and hot water rinse still no luck. Just done a pils with a protein rest so will see if that helps at all. The carbonation is fine and pours with a good head just 15 mins later its dead :S not on topic but just shitting me lol
 

Fish13

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Thats what i was thinking of down it for i haven't exactly had good lasting heads and no lacing as i sip... but thats a different story. I went with 58 as i had read it somewhere as temp range for protein rests ( or was it 52...) and the 68 for full bodied flavours.
 

manticle

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Try a rest at 72 for 10 mins after main mash.

Glycoprotein rest. Head like a big head thingamajig.

Glassware dependent obviously.
 

Fish13

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I protein rest most beers at 55 for about 5-10 mins. Nothing wrong if you know what you want. Why are you thinking it's a good idea?

The following has some info about step mashing and ideal ranges and respective enzymes

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...of-step-mashing. Personally I'd see 58 as approaching low sacch rest temps but enzyme ranges are not walled-in cities.
Just reading it now. hmm seems i might do a small rest at 50 and then one at 58 - 10 minutes each - and then hit my target of 66. I did mean that before but the 68 gives more full bodied and potentially sweeter beer going by that article.
 

manticle

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If you're happy step mashing then split the sacch rest into two parts. Considering you are already thinking of splitting the protein rest into two parts, why not the sacch rest which is arguably the most important rest? Go from 50 to 58 to 62 to 68 to 72 then mash out.

Then do the same beer at 66, no other rests. See if you think it makes difference, ascertain that difference and what causes it, then develop your future rest schedules from there.
 

Fish13

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do a 10L of each and see the difference? hmm

thats a good idea manticle. I hope my bag can hold out to it. I have figured i can raise the temp by adding water from my HLT pot and then do it again.

i will do ome further reading into it too. hope it does taste better then my last 3 beers :(
 

Fish13

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Try a rest at 72 for 10 mins after main mash.

Glycoprotein rest. Head like a big head thingamajig.

Glassware dependent obviously.
it either a english mug or stien or a pilsner glass
 

kelbygreen

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you can always decoction some mash out and boil it. I find with infusion and many steps you start with a mash like 1.5lt/kg and by the end you got about 5lts/kg and no water to sparge with lol. But decoction will bring a whole new thing to the beer as well, I try to only decoction after the sac rest is complete not sure if its a good idea early on in the mash???
 

manticle

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Decoction is fine early on (in fact for any step you like). You can use a blend of infusing and decocting to hit your steps so you don't end up with heaps of water and don't have to boil mash 6 times. Decocting will throw some flavour changes (nice ones in my experience) and darken the wort. Smells amazing.

When I spoke about glassware, I was more referring to how clean and free from detergent residue etc the glass is. A beer can hold a great rocky head in one glass and fall away miserably in another if oils or soap residues are on the glass.

Good luck fish.
 

Fish13

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I have read about dedoction But i don't fully understand the method yet. I'm about to smack the pack so i can make it when my brother gets down here today.
 

iralosavic

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I have read about dedoction But i don't fully understand the method yet. I'm about to smack the pack so i can make it when my brother gets down here today.
Wiki

I've never decocted before, but I'm planning on giving it a go on my next German lager. I am going to start with a relatively simple mash schedule:

63-68c for 60minutes, remove 1/3 mash volume (enough grain to be thick, but enough liquid to prevent scorching), bring to boil while stirring and then reduce to a simmer and put lid on and leave for 15 minutes (you may want to occasionally stir if the vessle you are using is prone to scorching), then return to the mash while ramping heat to mash-out.

My method is modified to suit BIAB, as I don't have sparge water calculated into my mash volume. In any case, once you understand that it can be as simple as the above, it should be fairly underwhelming.
 

kelbygreen

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yeah when I done mine the other day it smelt bloody good. It is a bit of work. I didnt bother simmering for mine just reached boil and added back to the mash as I couldnt get enough water in the tun to raise the temp so done a decoction boiled and added back to the wort.
 

pk.sax

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From what I understood, it is actually better to do a thick decoction from a lower rest to a higher rest as you introduce the longer chain sugars formed at the higher temps in the decoction back into the lower sacch rest. Then the enzymes go happy on them and break them down, also, the starches in the decocted part all go into the wort a a very enzyme happy temperature.
A thinner decoction or an infusion to raise to MO will do OK from my understanding.
This is just what I have been understanding from what I've been reading and some very helpful info from MHB and Kai's blog. Everything might not be strictly correct but did the job for me.
 

iralosavic

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From what I understood, it is actually better to do a thick decoction from a lower rest to a higher rest as you introduce the longer chain sugars formed at the higher temps in the decoction back into the lower sacch rest. Then the enzymes go happy on them and break them down, also, the starches in the decocted part all go into the wort a a very enzyme happy temperature.
A thinner decoction or an infusion to raise to MO will do OK from my understanding.
This is just what I have been understanding from what I've been reading and some very helpful info from MHB and Kai's blog. Everything might not be strictly correct but did the job for me.
I've heard it debated that there is no need to take a thick mixture for decoting to mash-out, but I haven't looked into it yet.

I don't have enough experience to comment on your former point regarding placing a single decoction at an earlier step, however, the reason I chose the mash-out step is because it means I can stick with a very similar schedule to a single infusion. I'd rather introduce one extra step at a time to minimise stress/room for error.

I also prefer to do things when I understand a bit about them (although it's easy to think you know when you don't and I'm guilty of that on occasion!), so before I move to step mashing that involves splitting the saccrification rest in two, I'd rather understand why I would do it and how it would affect the resultant beer. I may look into starting my mashes at the protein rest level once I've got more experience, but this will involve the need for having hot liquor at hand (as you don't really want to take 30 minutes ramping up from 55c to 62c, do you? This sort of brings me to the question (for myself), should I even bother step mashing in BIAB? Might as well make the move to a multi vessle system.
 

pk.sax

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I'd pull the decoction (as per a discussion in a previous thread) at the time of roughing in at protein rest temp and let that come to a gradual boil, let's say 10-15 minutes or whatever is your protein rest period. Then add the boiling decoction to get the step up.

Gradual boil means a lot of the starches in the decoction actually convert.

tbh, I won't be scared to do a protein rest. It had been done for eons and people still do it, couldn't be bad or they'd have completely stopped.

Making adjustments is as easy as adding a little cold water and stirring if you are overshooting. Tbh, I've done more of this than normal infusions in the absence of a an HLT.
 

Fish13

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done the 50 degree rest and now doing the 58. took a fair bit of water to get it to 58. Loosing too much too the surrounds....

The colour is awesome though! I love it
 
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