3v AG to BIAB No Chill - A downgrade of major success

[bear09]

Hey All,

Its probably a story told before but for me... wow. Have worked my way up the ranks to 3v AG brewing and spent a fortune alone the way. Ive had some minor success and a heck of a lot of failure. I was on the cusp of giving up brewing for good when at the last minute my old man expressed a small interest in giving it a try. I thought 'stuff it' and so he and I spent about $200 together on a large pot, bag and a few other pipes, connectors and spoons/chemicals etc.

I am in just pure shock about it all. BIAB NO CHILL has given us some of the most delicious beers. Not only are these beers delicious but they are bright and hold a head to the bottom of the glass (of which said head is thick like a layer of cream with the tiniest bubbles I have ever seen). On top of this the two things I always HATED about 3v Brewing were sparging and chilling - BOTH of which are eliminated from the process under BIAB NO CHILL.

So anyone out there thinking of taking the plunge into AG brewing I can only recommend to you that you start with BIAB NC. Its cheap to setup, easy and fun to do and will yield you a quality of brew you couldnt possibly imagine.

Enjoy.

 

[rude]

3 V no chill should be just as good what went wrong

 

[Helles]

I get excited during the fly sparge

 

[Kingy]

just to add to the discussion....
as a biabrewer to a 3 vessel brewer to a biabrewer back to a 3 vessel + herms brewer
I love pulling valves and moving big volumes around. I feel like a boss and in control.

 

[Rocker1986]

I started with BIAB NC 3 years ago.

Still doing it now with no plans to "upgrade". I like the simplicity of it and I'm more than happy with my results, so I really don't need more **** to waste money on or clean up after a brew day.

 

[mje1980]

3v for 10 years. Saw side by side Comparison at a club brew day. Sold my mash tun within a week and got a bag. Now have less gear, taking up less space.

Beers are as good as before.

I work as a manitenance fitter so I get to play around with lots of pumps, valves and all sorts of whizz bang tools at work, at all hours of the night, so at home I like the KISS of biab.

No better no worse just different

 

[Bribie G]

The difference between BIAB and the "traditional" methods is that you remove the grain from the wort, not the wort from the grain.
I often wish that BIAB had never been named BIAB, because it only refers to one stage in the journey of the grain to the brain.

Should really have been called MIAB (Mash in bag) or in my case MIABBCSOV (Mash in a bloody big circular sheet of voile)

 

[dicko]

I got into All Grain Brewing well before bag brewing came to be.

Like many, I graduated from vessel to vessel, mash tun to mash tun, kettle to kettle, no herms to herms, full on electric controllers,
Gas burners to "better" gas burners, and so the develpoment goes on.

I made beer.....

Then one day after many sleepless nights thinking about it I bought a 20 litre BM and I luv it...brewing made easy, clean, predictable, and with a great result.

A couple of years later my son, who has never done AG before and is sick of doing Kand K with poor results asks me can he make beers like I make them.

I said lets give BIAB a go so, he gets given an old urn from a local footy club, cleans it up and gets it working, we buy a bag and I crush him some grain and away he goes.......no chill and ferments as usual with his temp controlled fridge from the k and k days.

His comments and my observations.....are the best beer he has ever made.

BIAB is a great method and a very economical way to get into AG brewing....I would not go to it over my BM but IMO it is way ahead of a 3 v development model. If you go 3v plan it very carefully BEFORE any commitment.

My view is, an electric fired kettle with a simple mash method is a very economical way to achieve a great brew in an enjoyable way without a big outlay of hard earned money

 

[SBOB]

or in my case MIABBCSOV (Mash in a bloody big circular sheet of voile)

definitely an acronym that would have taken off

 

[contrarian]

I started out with BIAB and find it a great way to brew. The only issue I have come across is that it is a challenge to hit really high gravities say over 1.080. There's ways to do it but it's more fiddly.

It seems to me that 3v brewing is an attempt to mimic commercial breweries on a small scale and that although it was popularized by a few brewers on here that it was probably a method used by many home brewers historically.

No doubt people have been making beer at home for hundreds if not thousands of years and it's easier to imagine them doing it with one big pot than having complex 3v systems.

I think it is more than a great entry point into all grain brewing it's a great method full stop!

 

[Yob]

Hey All,
Its probably a story told before but for me... wow. Have worked my way up the ranks to 3v AG brewing and spent a fortune alone the way. Ive had some minor success and a heck of a lot of failure. I was on the cusp of giving up brewing for good when at the last minute my old man expressed a small interest in giving it a try. I thought 'stuff it' and so he and I spent about $200 together on a large pot, bag and a few other pipes, connectors and spoons/chemicals etc.

I am in just pure shock about it all. BIAB NO CHILL has given us some of the most delicious beers. Not only are these beers delicious but they are bright and hold a head to the bottom of the glass (of which said head is thick like a layer of cream with the tiniest bubbles I have ever seen). On top of this the two things I always HATED about 3v Brewing were sparging and chilling - BOTH of which are eliminated from the process under BIAB NO CHILL.
So anyone out there thinking of taking the plunge into AG brewing I can only recommend to you that you start with BIAB NC. Its cheap to setup, easy and fun to do and will yield you a quality of brew you couldnt possibly imagine.

Enjoy.

Why did you use a chiller then? Was nothing stopping you from going no chill off the bat..

I use a hybrid 3v herms setup but can all be gravity fed, open the tap on the hlt and walk away and do something else for half hour if I fly sparge.. I also exclusively no chill, I don't understand why, if you didn't enjoy chilling you persisted with it. How is ot any different to BIAB? Surely it's just the extraction method that differs.

 

[klangers]

I stopped doing BIAB when my grain bill was ~9kg for an imperial pilsner. Trying to lift that mofo up when it's absorbed water and squeezing... urgh.

Anyway, the scientist in me says that if everything else is controlled and done properly, there should be very little difference except for efficiency. It sounds like your bag gives you a clearer wort. Perhaps your lautering process with your three vessel (sometimes I really get tired of how many acronyms exist) setup may have had room for improvement.

Nevertheless, it's great that you've found a process that works for you.

I suspect a lot of people here, myself included, find that playing with our brewing equipment is half the fun and hence like the added complexity of the three vessel set up.

 

[professional_drunk]

BIAB = brew in a braumeister?

 

[Yob]

I suspect a lot of people here, myself included, find that playing with our brewing equipment is half the fun and hence like the added complexity of the three vessel set up.

totes, with the HERMS it's currently 4V (for me) and Im just about to build a 5th V so I can do reiterated mashes more easily (1.100+ beers)

tinker tinker... love the tinkering

 

[Milk-lizard84]

I'm currently building a 3v set up. I have biabed for about 2 years and love it but I wanted something abit more involved. I don't have kids and this is my only main hobby so I am free to spend a bit more time on my hobby.
I will still do the occasional biab for experimental stuff. I think it's each the there own set up wise as each person may have different factors that may inhibit them enjoying the hobby.
I no chill now and will continue to.

 

[bear09]

Hey Everyone - thanks a lot for the feedback. Im glad to hear that I am not alone. So a few things...

'I also exclusively no chill, I don't understand why, if you didn't enjoy chilling you persisted with it. How is ot any different to BIAB? Surely it's just the extraction method that differs.' --> I have done a lot of reading on chilling in that it helps to lock in hop flavour and profile. No chill is a long slow constant cool down which does have an affect on the potency of the hops. I chilled because I was trying to do what breweries do.

'I stopped doing BIAB when my grain bill was ~9kg for an imperial pilsner. Trying to lift that mofo up when it's absorbed water and squeezing... urgh.': Fortunately the old man is handy with a welder and whipped me up a basic crane. Our grain bill is 11kg normally and we hoist it up like its nothing

I got to 3v as fast as I could because I wanted to do it how the big boys did. I ALWAYS found sparging a challenge be it fly or batch (I tried both many times). I always found sparging to be very time consuming... same deal with chilling. For me so far BIAB has been simpler, more fun, more rewarding, cheaper, easier and has yielded me some of the best possible results I could have ever imagined. Taking a step back has been really helpful indeed.

 

[chrisluki]

I got to 3v as fast as I could because I wanted to do it how the big boys did. I ALWAYS found sparging a challenge be it fly or batch (I tried both many times). I always found sparging to be very time consuming... same deal with chilling. For me so far BIAB has been simpler, more fun, more rewarding, cheaper, easier and has yielded me some of the best possible results I could have ever imagined. Taking a step back has been really helpful indeed.

Hey mate, why do you find batch sparging to be so time consuming?

I do it pretty crudely and there is little more than 15 - 20 minutes in the whole process for me?

After mash i pour off a little to clear the tube in my false bottom mash tun and then run it all off (gravity fed) into the kettle. I then top back up my mash tun with the require liquid in 5l lots form my jug and pour it over my mash paddle to make sure it doesn't disturb the grain too much. I then leave it for 15 and then run off again. I hit my OG's every time?

Just wondering if I am not giving this process enough attention?

 

[Yob]

Can you tell me the difference between no chilling from BIAB and no chilling from 3v?

I'm glad you've got it going with your old man, that's cool..

 

[Rocker1986]

Wouldn't the fact that no-chilling is in a sealed vessel lock in the hop profile anyway? :unsure:

 

[manticle]

No.
Heat above about 80 sees alpha acids isomerising which allows them to dissolve more effectively, thus adding to bitterness.

While volatile aromatic compounds will not be driven off as they would be in an open vessel, they are delicate and I believe the extended heat will change their chemistry.

 

[mudd]

I'm personally of the opinion (freely given... if you don't want it too bad) that there is probably more benefit in asking whether to chill or not. Having had recent trouble getting aroma that I want I'm going back to chilling unless my fv is full. Hot side - not sure there is much difference save efficiency and clarity (both probably not the biggest issue at our scale). My2c

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Still fermenting my first beers done on my 3V (since upgrading from BIAB). So can't comment on the final beer, but the worts I'm getting in the kettle and super clear, the boil foam itself seems more consistent, hard to explain but there is less random chunky stuff in the boil break. There's probably science proving there is no difference, but super clear wort into the kettle from recirculating the mash is awesome.

 

[Rocker1986]

No.
Heat above about 80 sees alpha acids isomerising which allows them to dissolve more effectively, thus adding to bitterness.

While volatile aromatic compounds will not be driven off as they would be in an open vessel, they are delicate and I believe the extended heat will change their chemistry.

Fair point. I am aware of the acids still isomerising above 80C, though in my experience no-chilling I haven't noticed any beers having noticeably more bitterness than I expected when constructing recipes.
I measured the temp while I let the urn sit for its 15 mins post flameout last brew day, it dropped to 92C before I transferred to the cube. I didn't take a cube temp measurement though, will do next time.

Would it be fair to say that the isomerisation 'rate' for want of a better word, drops as the temperature drops? e.g. if you steeped hops in wort at 82C, there wouldn't be as much bitterness extracted as there would be at 97C?

 

[manticle]

Pretty sure that is the case, yes.

I no chill and I don't notice a heck of a lot of unwanted bitterness either but I also design my own recipes based around my own tastes. It's a bit like adding a few bullet chillis to a meal and saying it's not that spicy. My palate likes the chilli, is used to the chilli and I add the level I like. A non chilli eating person may sweat and cry, a total chilli freak might not even taste it.

I have done side by sides (chill/nc, same recipe) and there is a definite difference with super late hopped beers (different rather than better or worse).
Less hoppy beers I think the difference fades.

 

[Rocker1986]

I think that's the thing really, working it out for one's own tastes. I don't have a chiller so I can't do a side by side test like that. In saying that, I don't adjust my hop additions for NC but the beers turn out as intended so I see no reason to, although I don't do any huge late additions either, so that might have something to do with it.

 

[manticle]

Never adjusted mine either. Only would if I thought they were unbalanced or too bitter. Definitely is different for late hops though -no question but there are so many ways to tweak I don't stress.

 

[Rocker1986]

That is my approach as well. I'll look into it further if I'm planning a batch with a big late hop addition but otherwise my usual process/additions has been working perfectly well for me, and others who have sampled the resultant beers.

 

[rude]

Hey mate cool you are knocking out good beers

You like BIAB cool

I still dont get the sparge issue you had with the 3 V system its got to be easier than sparging BIAB

Anyway its here nor there you are brewing how you like to to so good on ya all the best

 

[Fylp]

No.
Heat above about 80 sees alpha acids isomerising which allows them to dissolve more effectively, thus adding to bitterness.

While volatile aromatic compounds will not be driven off as they would be in an open vessel, they are delicate and I believe the extended heat will change their chemistry.

I have tried to play around with my no chill based on this idea. I have started leaving my whirlpool till I get to about 85, then cubing with hops. I can see a difference in aroma, I've never chilled so can only compare to my other beers cubed at higher temps.

 

[bear09]

Hey mate, why do you find batch sparging to be so time consuming?

I do it pretty crudely and there is little more than 15 - 20 minutes in the whole process for me?

After mash i pour off a little to clear the tube in my false bottom mash tun and then run it all off (gravity fed) into the kettle. I then top back up my mash tun with the require liquid in 5l lots form my jug and pour it over my mash paddle to make sure it doesn't disturb the grain too much. I then leave it for 15 and then run off again. I hit my OG's every time?

Just wondering if I am not giving this process enough attention?

Mate same for me - anywhere 15-30 mins but I still had to setup the HLT and hoses, do two run offs to clear the wort and then pack it all up once done. BIAB takes about 30 seconds to complete the process - by lifting the bag. On top of this my results with BIAB give me a beer with more body and depth. Under 3v for me my beers were always a little watery - ALWAYS. After tasting my first BIAB I noticed a difference immediately in regards to the BODY of the beer. In all honesty I feel kind of **** as a brewer. To spruik about a very rudimentry form of brewing as being better than that of 3v seems as though I must have been doing something wrong. Ive been to heaps of brew demos, Ive googled, Ive watched youtube and I have read. Nothing I was doing about 3v was wrong but my results with BIAB are better. I think there is a reason too as to why the Braumeister has been so successful... its glorified BIAB every day of the week. Its BIAFSSV (Brew in a fancy stainless steel vessel :lol:... Though Id KILL to own one ).

Can you tell me the difference between no chilling from BIAB and no chilling from 3v?

I'm glad you've got it going with your old man, that's cool..

No difference at all IMO.