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34-70 Issues

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Desert Brewer

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Hi all, i pitched a sachet of 34 - 70 into a24 degrees - 1048 og Bohemian Pils 36hrs ago - no movement in the air lock - no sign of any Krausen.


I pitched the same yeast into 35 degree - 1046 Bohemian Pils 3 weeks ago it was up bubbling within 24hrs.

Both batches are 23 litre, methods are all grain BIAB with same ingredients different ratios. The current batch was a 5 step mash the previous was a 2 step mash.

The current batch was pitched at 24 d put in brew fridge with temp set to 12 it reached 12d in 12 hours - i have turned the temp upto 17 this morning. If it is still showing no sign of any action tonight, do I -


A)- Take a gravity reading and see what its doing - if there is some difference fromOG let it go and see what happens,

B) - Take action - aggitate the wort (shake fermentor )- and see what happens in the next 12 hours.

C) - Aggitate wort and pitch another yeast ( i have no more 34 - 70 - so will have to be an 05)



This is my first venture into a "complicated " mashing process any advice greatfully recieved.



Cheers,



DB
 

fraser_john

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Patience.

Did you hydrate the yeast first or pitch it dry? If dry, you would have lost quite a high % of yeast through shock, even though they say you can do it. So it might take a little longer to show action.
 

DJR

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w34/70 can be very slow to start sometimes.

You should really be pitching 2 packets of lager yeast into a 23L batch to give the yeast a good head start, lager yeast doesn't reproduce as fast due to the lower temperatures. Just see if it's bubbling tonight, you can aerate a bit or rouse the fermenter, but if I were you and it wasn't bubbling i would add a second packet of yeast. Be aware though that after 36h of no activity something else may have taken hold - bacteria or the like.

Also are you sure the lid is on properly, sometimes gas can escape somewhere else other than the airlock and make it look like it's not working. Also lager yeast does not throw a krausen quite like an ale yeast (bottom vs top fermenting) although at about day 2-3 you will start to see foam on the surface.
 

Nick JD

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Pitching a lager yeast at 35C is not best practice. Early 20s is okay, but for the best lager possible, it's best to pitch at fermentation temp - and pitch the mother lode of yeast.

Check out making starters - if you're going to do complicated mashes, and then pitch yeast haphazardly you're kinda wrecking all that good work.
 

Desert Brewer

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It was a dry pitch - but as the previous pitch was also dry and at 35 d i figured a dry pitch into a more optimum 24 d would not be an issue.

There is always room for technique improvement - making starters, reusing yeasts, improved areation the list goes on.I think i have just got cooling method down after 18 months of trying as few things - 2 x immersion chillers and 1 x plate chiller - got it down from post boil to 24 d in approx 35min.

Better yeast management is high on the improvement list.

I will try and sneak home at lunch (an advantage of living in a small town) and check a few things - lid is on properly - check for activity etc.

I will not panic just yet - another 12 - 18 hours before the style goes from Bohemian Pils to American Pilsner Ale something....... as idont have another 34 - 70. :huh:

Thanks for the advice.
 

Desert Brewer

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We have air lock activity and krausen :D - was the best way to end an otherwise ordinary day.


I got the temp upto 18 - i will now reduce it slowly back down to 12 over a day or two - hopefully no unwanted nasties tookhold over that long lag time.


Once again....... another brewing session and new stuff learnt .



Thanks for your input



Cheers,



DB
 

hamsy

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What was the reason for pitching the yeast at such a high temp?
Is that as cold as your chiller can produce?
Also did you oxgenate your wort?
 

Renzo

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Sorry to hijack the thread a bit but does 34/70 attenuate dryer than S-189? To date I've done done about 15-20 step mash helles 100% Weyerman pils(hockkurz- herms) and even extend the 63C rest to 60mins but can't seem to get it below 1.012 (OG usually around 1.048). S-189 produces a super clean lager ( I do the Ross fermentation method) and have no real complaints but wouldn't mind getting it a bit drier without adding sugar. I always pitch at 10C and rise to 12c for primary until it's done ( sometimes leave it for 14days)but can never get it lower than 1.012 or 1.013/4. Is 34/70 as clean and as fast as s-189? If not how much different is the flavour profile in general terms?

Cheers
 

Nick JD

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Sorry to hijack the thread a bit but does 34/70 attenuate dryer than S-189? To date I've done done about 15-20 step mash helles 100% Weyerman pils(hockkurz- herms) and even extend the 63C rest to 60mins but can't seem to get it below 1.012 (OG usually around 1.048). S-189 produces a super clean lager ( I do the Ross fermentation method) and have no real complaints but wouldn't mind getting it a bit drier without adding sugar. I always pitch at 10C and rise to 12c for primary until it's done ( sometimes leave it for 14days)but can never get it lower than 1.012 or 1.013/4. Is 34/70 as clean and as fast as s-189? If not how much different is the flavour profile in general terms?

Cheers
How much yeast are you pitching? What's your oxygenation regime?

Why are you going to all this trouble and not buying Wyeast?
 

dicko

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Sorry to hijack the thread a bit but does 34/70 attenuate dryer than S-189? To date I've done done about 15-20 step mash helles 100% Weyerman pils(hockkurz- herms) and even extend the 63C rest to 60mins but can't seem to get it below 1.012 (OG usually around 1.048). S-189 produces a super clean lager ( I do the Ross fermentation method) and have no real complaints but wouldn't mind getting it a bit drier without adding sugar. I always pitch at 10C and rise to 12c for primary until it's done ( sometimes leave it for 14days)but can never get it lower than 1.012 or 1.013/4. Is 34/70 as clean and as fast as s-189? If not how much different is the flavour profile in general terms?

Cheers
I use s189 quite often and I have found that if I do a step mash 55. 63. 72. 78. I get an fg of 1012 for an og of 1046.

If I do a mash of 66. 72. 78. I get an fg of 1010 for the same beer.

I have found that 34/70 does ferment a bit drier but it tends to throw a gas that would make a brewery horse blush and the effort to get the smell from the finished product is not worth it IMO.

To the OP, oxygenation is very important with lager yeasts as is the quantity pitched and I apologise for the OT reply.

@ nickjd. Dry yeasts make the job a bit easier but yes, they still need the correct pitching rate and aeration.

Cheers
 

Renzo

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I use s189 quite often and I have found that if I do a step mash 55. 63. 72. 78. I get an fg of 1012 for an og of 1046.

If I do a mash of 66. 72. 78. I get an fg of 1010 for the same beer.

I have found that 34/70 does ferment a bit drier but it tends to throw a gas that would make a brewery horse blush and the effort to get the smell from the finished product is not worth it IMO.

To the OP, oxygenation is very important with lager yeasts as is the quantity pitched and I apologise for the OT reply.

@ nickjd. Dry yeasts make the job a bit easier but yes, they still need the correct pitching rate and aeration.

Cheers



Cheers. I'll try that temp mash next time. Interesting.
 

Renzo

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How much yeast are you pitching? What's your oxygenation regime?

Why are you going to all this trouble and not buying Wyeast?
2 packs and oxygenation stone through the port of my conical.



I use Wyeast as well but like to use S-189 for convenience and it's clean flav profile as well.
 

Desert Brewer

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Hamsy, the day i pitched at 35 - i didnt directly chill wort with an immersion chiller - i only chilled the water that was running through my plate chiller - the best i could manage was 35. It was the first time id used the plate chiller - so was unfamiliar with what it would do. I was a little paranoid about leaving wort in the fermentor overnight without yeast in case of infection, if i had cubed it and let it cool down not a problem, but i didnt - so i pitched at 35, not ideal, but i had to make the call, it was early Sunday evening the kids need attention etc etc......

I think because the wort was warmer for longer that it allowed the yeast to get a good start - as the wort was still at about 18 d the next morning and down to 12 d that afternoon.

The weekend just passed i chilled wort with immersion chiller - got it down to about 35 - then hooked up the plate chiller to an immerssioin chiller.The immersion chiller was stuck in a pot filled with frozen 1.25 litre bottles and water, the water in the pot was about 5 d - with one pass i got 23 litres of wort down from 35 d to 24 d in about 10mins - pretty happy with that - if i can get the wort chilled that quick in summer i will be pretty happy.

Anyway....everybrew day i learn something new and refine my methods.

Cheers,

DB
 

hamsy

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Hamsy, the day i pitched at 35 - i didnt directly chill wort with an immersion chiller - i only chilled the water that was running through my plate chiller - the best i could manage was 35. It was the first time id used the plate chiller - so was unfamiliar with what it would do. I was a little paranoid about leaving wort in the fermentor overnight without yeast in case of infection, if i had cubed it and let it cool down not a problem, but i didnt - so i pitched at 35, not ideal, but i had to make the call, it was early Sunday evening the kids need attention etc etc......

I think because the wort was warmer for longer that it allowed the yeast to get a good start - as the wort was still at about 18 d the next morning and down to 12 d that afternoon.

The weekend just passed i chilled wort with immersion chiller - got it down to about 35 - then hooked up the plate chiller to an immerssioin chiller.The immersion chiller was stuck in a pot filled with frozen 1.25 litre bottles and water, the water in the pot was about 5 d - with one pass i got 23 litres of wort down from 35 d to 24 d in about 10mins - pretty happy with that - if i can get the wort chilled that quick in summer i will be pretty happy.

Anyway....everybrew day i learn something new and refine my methods.

Cheers,

DB
I understand completely mate, that's half the fun of a brewday! Hope you get it nutted out soon!

I can see how pitching the yeast at warmer temps will help the fermentation speed, but definitely not better for the fermentation quality!
A quick start isn't necessarily a good start.. For example I work with a guy who lived in northern QLD a few years ago and he tells me on a weekly basis how the weather up there is optimum for home brewing because his brews use to ferment in 2 days....

Not saying your beer will be bad but cooler temps will produce a more refined product...

Another cause for the lag phase after first pitching could probably be oxygenation overload..

In the lag phase the yeast is consuming oxygen, which will build cell count, produce a PH drop and some sulfur, but won't move the gravity.. Then the yeast runs out of oxygen and switches to plan B, which is sugar as an energy source (the start of fermentation).

In a nutshell if you over oxygenate, the yeast takes longer to begin fermentation. This does mean your cell count will be higher though, which is handy for lager ferments. But it can lead to problems down the track.

I think it would be worth your while investing in a yeast starter setup... Which will give you the required viable cells for good fermentation, require less wort oxygenation, and reduce the pre-fermenting lag phase.

The quality of the yeast pitched is paramount to good fermentation.
 

Thirsty Boy

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( sometimes leave it for 14days)
Really?? - i dont think i've ever fermented a lager where primary fermentation lasted less than 14 days.......

perhaps you are simply being a bit impatient?
 

MHB

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34/70 is probably the most widely used Lager yeast in the world reportedly accounting for something like 45% of the beer brewed in Germany.
S-189 is only still in production for 1 big brewery in (IIRC) Switzerland, Saf doesnt even offer it in sachet, just 500g blocks and above.
The popularity of S-189 has always been a bit of a mystery to me
Mark
 

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