Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

citric vs lactic acid equivalence for mashwater pH adjustment


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 Goose

Goose

    0 Warning Points

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 629 posts
  • Joined 06-July 05

Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:12 PM

Most water calculators out there only seem to facilitate the use of liquid acids for pH adjustment but I only have access to solid citric so looking for confirmation that my conversion is accurate.

 

I have had a play with Brun water which i find a bit user unfriendly and if I am right it would suggest that 1 g of solid citric is equivalent to 0.716 ml of 88% liquid lactic acid in terms of its effect on lowering pH.

 

Can anybody confirm this conversion ?

 

 



#2 timmi9191

timmi9191

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 877 posts
  • Joined 22-April 12

Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:23 PM

Depends on thr concentration of tge citric in solid form and dilution. So you need to post more info. Remembering acids arent acids

#3 Jack of all biers

Jack of all biers

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 452 posts
  • Joined 06-June 15
  • Location:Adelaide

Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:39 PM

I'm guessing your citric is 100% or thereabouts.  Go to Brewers friend calculators to find how much you need to add.  Once there you can choose which acid, at what percentage to add to mash or sparge and it will spit out a measure for you.

 

EDIT - grammar


Edited by Jack of all biers, 18 March 2017 - 11:03 PM.


#4 Goose

Goose

    0 Warning Points

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 629 posts
  • Joined 06-July 05

Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:31 PM

Depends on thr concentration of tge citric in solid form and dilution. So you need to post more info. Remembering acids arent acids

 

That's a new one for me on solid acid, I assumed the crystals were 100%. If not, what is the inert compound in there ?I could only guess whether there is any water contained in the crystalline structure, ie anhydrous or pure.

 

So, assuming its pure, do you know the answer ?

 

Thanks in advance.



#5 peteru

peteru

    Here, taste this!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 903 posts
  • Joined 13-October 13

Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:44 AM

Are we talking about this? http://www.mckenzies...es-citric-acid/



#6 MHB

MHB

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined 01-October 05

Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:57 AM

I would avoid Citric, Lactic and Phosphoric are the main acids used in commercial brewing and no, that isn't a cost choice its an outcome based decision. Truth is I cant find one example of a professional operation using Citric acid.

Have done a bit of research on the role of Citric acid. it is very important as a part of the Citric Acid Cycle (Krebs cycle), but that happens inside the yeast cell. Citric acid along with Malic Acid are produced as a byproduct of fermentation and cause the reduction in the beer pH during fermentation.

 

Adding Citric Acid to the mash could be a lot more problematic. Citric Acid is a very powerful chelating agent, it binds metal ions, including Calcium that we spend a lot of time on here talking about, removing Calcium not only takes calcium out of play it reduces the effect of Ca on wort pH and reduces the overall buffering capacity of the mash.

There are also a few flavour warnings about what too much will do in the beer, but you would need to be pretty heavy handed for most people to taste the citric acid, tho some people are very sensitive to citric acid flavour.

 

For what it costs to get some Lactic acid delivered from any one of many on line suppliers, I think it would be a worthwhile investment.

Mark



#7 manticle

manticle

    Standing up for the Aussie Bottler

  • Moderators
  • 25,220 posts
  • Joined 27-September 08
  • Location:Glenorchy, TAS

Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:38 AM

I think Goose is based outside AU which might make it less available.

Otherwise I'd second ease of use and economics of hbs available phos or lactic.

#8 mabrungard

mabrungard

    Partial Man

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 103 posts
  • Joined 21-December 12
  • Location:Indianapolis, Indiana

Posted 27 March 2017 - 12:16 AM

Citric acid is far from ideal for brewing use, but it can have a place in brewing. The big problem with citric is that its flavor threshold is much lower than that of many other acids. Citric acid can be used in brewing if the water supply has low alkalinity. 

 

I'm not sure how the OP determined that 0.71 ml of 88% lactic is equal to 1 g of citric. Equivalence is defined as the amount of neutralizing power the acid addition provides. That is shown as an allegory in the form of its 'negative' bicarbonate concentration. I find that 1 gram of citric solid is equal to about 0.862 ml of 88% lactic. 



#9 Goose

Goose

    0 Warning Points

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 629 posts
  • Joined 06-July 05

Posted 09 April 2017 - 11:21 AM

I'm not sure how the OP determined that 0.71 ml of 88% lactic is equal to 1 g of citric. Equivalence is defined as the amount of neutralizing power the acid addition provides. That is shown as an allegory in the form of its 'negative' bicarbonate concentration. I find that 1 gram of citric solid is equal to about 0.862 ml of 88% lactic. 

 

 

Hey Martin good to hear from you on the forum.

 

To calculate the equivalence between lactic 88% and solid citric, I used your “Sparge Acidification” tab.

 

For my water with a starting pH (7.0) and alkalinity (19 ppm as CaCO3), targeting a pH of 4.3 the output tells me I need .045 ml of lactic acid per litre of water OR 62.71 mg per litre of citric acid (solid) if I select that option in the drop down box in the inputs section.

 

Therefore 1g of citric acid equates to .045/62.71*1000 =0.718 ml of 88% lactic (I said 0.716 earlier, rounding).

 

The reason I used the “Sparge Acidification” tab is because I notice that you do not include a citric or solid acid option in your “Water Adjustment” tab ?



#10 MHB

MHB

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined 01-October 05

Posted 09 April 2017 - 12:15 PM

Snip

The reason I used the “Sparge Acidification” tab is because I notice that you do not include a citric or solid acid option in your “Water Adjustment” tab ?

Have you thought there might be a good reason why citric is left off the list of "recommended/used" water adjustment acids?

Mark



#11 Gelding

Gelding

    Partial Man

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Joined 28-December 13
  • Location:Travelling

Posted 09 April 2017 - 07:01 PM

Have you thought there might be a good reason why citric is left off the list of "recommended/used" water adjustment acids?

 

I believe the OP is asking why citric is included in the sparge acidification tab, which is also water adjustment.... ?


Edited by Gelding, 09 April 2017 - 07:02 PM.


#12 MHB

MHB

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined 01-October 05

Posted 09 April 2017 - 07:51 PM

Well you would have to ask the guy who wrote the website, the same guy who is suggesting Citric is less than ideal for the job.

Hydrochloric and Sulphuric, will also work, but Lactic and Phosphoric are generally regarded as the best choices.

Mark



#13 Gelding

Gelding

    Partial Man

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Joined 28-December 13
  • Location:Travelling

Posted 09 April 2017 - 08:28 PM

Well you would have to ask the guy who wrote the website, the same guy who is suggesting Citric is less than ideal for the job.

 

 

I believe he did, and nobody is doubting that citric is less than ideal.



#14 rude

rude

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,216 posts
  • Joined 07-May 08
  • Location:W.A Melville

Posted 09 April 2017 - 09:25 PM

Maybe Goose is loose & just likes to play around    with maths



#15 manticle

manticle

    Standing up for the Aussie Bottler

  • Moderators
  • 25,220 posts
  • Joined 27-September 08
  • Location:Glenorchy, TAS

Posted 09 April 2017 - 09:55 PM

Maybe Goose is loose & just likes to play around    with maths




#16 Zorco

Zorco

    Beer God

  • Pro
  • 1,992 posts
  • Joined 10-July 14

Posted 09 April 2017 - 10:40 PM

That is the funniest thing I've watched this year!

#17 Goose

Goose

    0 Warning Points

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 629 posts
  • Joined 06-July 05

Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:31 AM

Gents, many thanks for the feedback.

 

MHB, yes I am aware that Citric is not the best but as Manticle correctly points out I don’t have immediate access to liquid lactic, the only two homebrew shops that exist in this country do not stock it while citric is available in supermarkets. I am trying to get some shipped in…

 

In the meantime I figure that given my alkalinity is very low, using citric to lower my pH is better than none, hence my trials and tribulations with the bru’n water spreadsheet.

 

And yes I have asked above why it is included as an option for sparge water pH adjustment but not in the mash... :unsure:

 

While we are on the subject, what I could forward order is acidulated malt though there seems to be mixed opinions on whether it is necessary or has its place if lactic acid is an available alternative. I was informed recently by a microbrewer owner that he uses both, and the reason why is that the acid malt is slow releasing throughout the mash and therefore does a better job of pH stability. I am not sure about the logic of this one, views welcome ?



#18 Matplat

Matplat

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,047 posts
  • Joined 15-January 15
  • Location:South Brisbane

Posted 10 April 2017 - 12:04 PM

The other option likely available to you is hydrochloric, you can get it at hardware stores, or swimming pools stores.

 

Also, why are you targeting a ph of 4.3?? the finished beer will end up around there, but you certainly don't want the ph of your mash or sparge water anywhere near that low.



#19 MHB

MHB

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined 01-October 05

Posted 10 April 2017 - 12:27 PM

Just out of curiosity - which country?

If your Carbonate is low then using Acid Malt (Sauermalz) would be a great choice, up to 5% of grist without any problems, 10% if needed, tho I don't agree with the slow release.

You could even make your own Bioacidified malt, just by soaking some malt in water at 45oC for a day or two, you would need to do a bit of reading up on the process and have a good way to measure your pH, but if its an ongoing issue you can make a stock solution then pasteurise it and use it at need.

 

Weyermann Acid malt will lower the pH 0.1pH/1% of grist and as Matplat said your mash pH wants to be higher than 4.3 more like 5.3 give or take.

This is a really good read http://braukaiser.co...Mash_pH_control

 

Good brewing

Mark