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IBU calculation from whirlpool


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#1 lukasfab

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:38 AM

planning to added about 150g at flame for a hop stand of about 20min before starting to chill

how are you guys calculating the IBU for this addition? surely its not the same as a 20min boil addition

 

cheers



#2 indica86

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:22 AM

Using Beersmith and Citra I get 127 IBU from a 20 minute boil and 61 IBU from a 20 minute whirlpool.



#3 husky

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:43 AM

I have beersmith set to 40% utilisation for whirlpool additions.
I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.

Edited by husky, 08 January 2017 - 06:47 AM.


#4 Pratty1

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:02 AM

I've got beersmith set at 25% utilization and whirlpool at 95c for on average 15mins and the ibu I get is similar to the number BS suggest my beer is.

#5 TwoCrows

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:45 AM

Beer smith boil and whirlpool maths are out of wack.

 

If you add to  boiling wort for 20 mins /  add to whirlpool at boiling for 20 mins,  Whats the difference??

 

I believe that Brad at Beersmith is trying to rectify the issue, but the mathematical equations need tweeking.

 

I heard this as a public statement on a you tube video....



#6 lukasfab

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 09:39 AM

Thank guys!

Indica86, at least that's something I can work with. I use brewers friend , don't think you can change utilisation???

#7 Droopy Brew

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 09:47 AM

HI Lucas,

 

You can in brewers friend. When you enter the hop addition to the recipe use the drop down list to select whirlpool. It will then give you the option to add utilisation and wort temp.

Im surprised to see how high some guys here set it. I usually work with 5-6% and find it is on the money. 



#8 BKBrews

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 12:57 PM

Beer smith boil and whirlpool maths are out of wack.

If you add to boiling wort for 20 mins / add to whirlpool at boiling for 20 mins, Whats the difference??

I believe that Brad at Beersmith is trying to rectify the issue, but the mathematical equations need tweeking.

I heard this as a public statement on a you tube video....


You have to set your whirlpool timing as well though? If your settings say that you whirlpool for 10min above 85 degrees but then your recipe is a 30min steep/whirlpool, then it won't work.

I have mine set to 30min whirlpool above 85 degrees and I generally do a 30min steep/whirlpool addition that I dump in straight after flameout. My gf generally takes 30min to go from boiling to 85, so this works for me. After half an hour I just start chilling.

#9 TidalPete

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 01:42 PM

husky, on 08 Jan 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

I have beersmith set to 40% utilisation for whirlpool additions.
I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.

 

Pretty similar to my process but as I use a ss immersion chiller, whirlpool (recirculation via whirlpool tool) commences 20 minutes before flameout to sterilise.

Given up on adding hops at 15, 10, 5 or whatever & just add the lot to whirlpool. Works just fine.

 

Flameout

Chill to 82

Water off, pump off, whirlpool hops added

Cover kettle & sit for 45 minutes. Temp is usually 71\72 by then

Water back on, pump back on, chill down to whatever



#10 TidalPete

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 07:40 PM

TidalPete, on 08 Jan 2017 - 1:42 PM, said:

Pretty similar to my process but as I use a ss immersion chiller, whirlpool (recirculation via whirlpool tool) commences 20 minutes before flameout to sterilise.

Given up on adding hops at 15, 10, 5 or whatever & just add the lot to whirlpool. Works just fine.

 

Flameout

Chill to 82

Water off, pump off, whirlpool hops added

Cover kettle & sit for 45 minutes. Temp is usually 71\72 by then

Water back on, pump back on, chill down to whatever

 

Too late to edit but should have attempted to address the OP's IBU question in my reply above.

 

Probably goes without saying but from 82 deg c downwards (theoretically anyway) there should be minimal IBU's added to the wort.

Definitely not a problem if you're doing AIPA's or similar. :P



#11 BKBrews

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:53 PM

Too late to edit but should have attempted to address the OP's IBU question in my reply above.

Probably goes without saying but from 82 deg c downwards (theoretically anyway) there should be minimal IBU's added to the wort.
Definitely not a problem if you're doing AIPA's or similar. :P


Mmm that's probably a better way of doing it than I do. I normally chill to 72 and hold it there, but maybe letting it free fall from around 80 to a minimum of 72 for a desired length of time is the way to go...

#12 Danscraftbeer

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 09:10 PM

Your now talking hop stands. I do them too. To add this into your software for calculations its more to take notes of it in the records. It adds maybe 2 to 3 IBU's. YMMV

 

I have just done a no chill with all hops added at flame out whirlpool only. With Beersmith 2, last updated maybe 6 months ago.

I trust its default settings with the whirlpool to be as close as I can judge, and I do my best to pay attention to detail (taste) and tweak the software if its needed. Improved and consistent with my methods now the software seems good on default settings.

It still estimates FG too high on Pales but I think that just comes down to my fault with mash temps.

 

Hop stand additions (between 70 to 80c) I add to the recipe but added as a 1 minute whirl addition for the calculations. Don't ask for the theory on that. Just record it in the notes.

1 minute for 20 minutes.

2 minutes for 40 minutes etc.

$0.02


Edited by Danscraftbeer, 08 January 2017 - 09:15 PM.


#13 BKBrews

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:06 PM

Your now talking hop stands. I do them too. To add this into your software for calculations its more to take notes of it in the records. It adds maybe 2 to 3 IBU's. YMMV

I have just done a no chill with all hops added at flame out whirlpool only. With Beersmith 2, last updated maybe 6 months ago.
I trust its default settings with the whirlpool to be as close as I can judge, and I do my best to pay attention to detail (taste) and tweak the software if its needed. Improved and consistent with my methods now the software seems good on default settings.
It still estimates FG too high on Pales but I think that just comes down to my fault with mash temps.

Hop stand additions (between 70 to 80c) I add to the recipe but added as a 1 minute whirl addition for the calculations. Don't ask for the theory on that. Just record it in the notes.
1 minute for 20 minutes.
2 minutes for 40 minutes etc.
$0.02


I'm the same, except I add all of my hopstand additions as 1min, regardless of the length. Although I've only ever done 45 or 1hr stands.

In regards to it estimating the FG incorrectly, are you sure you just don't have your brewhouse efficiency set too high for your system?

#14 damoninja

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:45 PM

I do a 5 min whirlpool @ 95-98ish deg then chill and do a 20 minute stand @ 80ish deg and count this as a 20 min WP. Working well for me and I generally add 90% of my hops in the WP.

 

This.

 

But more or less for me hops go in, chiller goes on, I slowly chill for a few mins as it drops to 80



#15 lukasfab

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:16 AM

thanks for replies guys, sorry for late response

 

i actually dont have whirlpool option in brewers friend?

only dry, aroma, boil, first wort and mash

 

cant find/see drop box to adjust utilization anywhere ?



#16 lukasfab

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:20 AM

this is what i have so far, the red x is only there to use it up as i thought it was a crystal when i got it

 

 

batch 45 AIPA (American IPA)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.056  (°P): 13.8
Final Gravity (FG):    1.011  (°P): 2.8
Alcohol (ABV):         5.94 %
Colour (SRM):          6.9   (EBC): 13.5
Bitterness (IBU):      59.9   (Tinseth)

83.33% United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale
6.95% German - Red X Bestmalz
5.56% German - Carapils
4.17% German - Wheat Malt

0.3 g/L Magnum (12.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
0.9 g/L Mosiac (11.6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
4.5 g/L Simcoe (12.7% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
6.8 g/L Simcoe (12.7% Alpha) @ 2 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 20°C with Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05


Recipe Generated with Brewer's Friend
 



#17 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:56 AM

OK

 

I've had to make some assumptions here because there isn't enough information.

 

In post #1 you mention that the big add is at flameout then has a 20 minute stand before chilling. I have assumed that big add is the last "2 minute" add above. I have further assumed that the hop stand has a final temperature of 80 oC and that you are chilling in place and this takes 20 minutes to reach 50 oC.

 

With those assumptions, using the newest version of my calculator* I get IBU contributions of 9.1, 10.1, 25.6 and 43.8 for each of these adds, for a total of 88.5.

 

The calculation is very sensitive to whirlpool temperature: if I put in a final temp of 85 oC it goes up to 101 IBU, mostly from the last add. Accordingly, to make this prediction reasonable I need to know exact temperatures and cooling times.

 

I'm also suspicious of any number above about 80 as AAs aren't very soluble.

 

 

 

* there's an error in one of the cells of the previous ones which happens to affect whirlpool temperature calculations. I've fixed it but I'll have to look to find where it came from before posting the new version.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 12 January 2017 - 11:05 AM.


#18 husky

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:02 AM

OK

 

I've had to make some assumptions here because there isn't enough information.

 

In post #1 you mention that the big add is at flameout then has a 20 minute stand before chilling.

 

I have assumed that big add is the last "2 minute" add above. I have further assumed that the hop stand has a final temperatue of 80 oC and that your chilling is in place and takes 20 minutes to reach 50 oC.

 

With those assumptions, I get IBU contributions of 9.1, 10.1, 25.6 and 43.8 for each of these adds, for a total of 88.5.

 

I'm always suspicious of any number above about 70as AAs have a solubility limit.

 

How are you accounting for the lower utilisation as the temp drops? Every micro brewer I have spoken to gives me a different answer and in most cases they don't even calculate IBU since they are brewing more often and can make changes from batch to batch and gauge the effect practically.



#19 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:32 AM

See previous thread: http://aussiehomebre...bu-calculations

 

note that as per above post, the version of the calculator uploaded there has an error in cell E8 in the "behind the scenes" page.

 

If you substitute

 

=(E7*'Display '!C2*'Behind the scenes'!C6+'Display '!C6*('Display '!E6+273.15))/'Behind the scenes'!C8

 

into that cell it will fix that error.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 12 January 2017 - 11:35 AM.


#20 Droopy Brew

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:37 AM

Lucas, Im not sure why you dont have whirlpool options. Mine does. Are you a paid up member or using the free version? that may be a factor.

 

Also, some of the above utilisations are interesting. At 60 minute boil BF has utilisation @29%, 10 minute boil @10.5% and 5minute boil @6%.

 

Husky, I think your 40% utilisation at whirlpool may need some revision mate. Im not sure you would get 40% from a 120 minute boil? 

 

Happy to be corrected with some science but. Lyrebird Im looking at you.


Edited by Droopy Brew, 12 January 2017 - 11:37 AM.