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Possible Infection? Hop Flowers


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#21 manticle

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:13 PM

Doesn't look anything like the hot break I get but regardless - seeing how it ends up is better than jumping the gun. Photos can be deceiving and I have been wrong.

#22 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:08 PM

FWIW it doesn't look like LAB, hop flowers or hot break to me.

 

It looks very much like what you get when a film forming aerobic yeast or other organism has grown across the surface of a liquid and the resulting film is then broken up by agitation: if you look closely you can see the small tears in the film from the breakup.

 

What happens next is dependent on what the film forming organism is but it isn't likely to be good*.

 

IMO your options are ditch it or re- boil it. Continuing as is will just delay the point at which you ditch it.

 

 

 

* But then again it can occasionally turn out OK: some years ago at a very large winery I was called in to the cellar to decide on what to do with the bottoms from a tank pumpout where exactly this had happened. I took one whiff and thought "that's flor": flor is the film forming yeast that makes fino sherry special. We had a suitable base available so we just pumped it over the surface and indeed it made a really good dry sherry.

 

Then again, you probably don't want to make a beer that tastes like fino sherry.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 07 January 2017 - 08:21 PM.


#23 BKBrews

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:18 PM

FWIW it doesn't look like LAB, hop flowers or hot break to me.

It looks very much like what you get when a film forming yeast or other organism has grown across the surface of a liquid and the resulting film is then broken up by agitation: if you look closely you can see the small tears in the film from the breakup.

What happens next is dependent on what the film forming organism is but it isn't likely to be good*.

IMO your options are ditch it or re- boil it. Continuing as is will just delay the point at which you ditch it.



* But then again it can occasionally turn out OK: some years ago at a very large winery I was called in to the cellar to decide on what to do with the bottoms from a tank where exactly this had happened. I took one whiff and thought that's a flor (the film forming yeast that makes fino sherry special). As it happened we had a suitable base available so we just pumped it over the surface and indeed it made a really good dry sherry. Then again, you probably don't want to make a beer that tastes like fino sherry.


Hmmmm. Well that's stuffed my vibe!

What could possibly form this quickly though? Like I don't think it formed within the 20min that it took me to find it, I think it was there as soon as I transferred. Could it be due to the 72 degree hop stand that I did for 45min? Heat too low to stop something growing?

#24 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:23 PM

A film like that takes days to develop.

 

IMO the most likely cause is that you had standing liquid in your heat exchanger, they are notoriously difficult to empty.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 07 January 2017 - 08:24 PM.


#25 BKBrews

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:38 PM

A film like that takes days to develop.

IMO the most likely cause is that you had standing liquid in your heat exchanger, they are notoriously difficult to empty.


I recirculated my counterflow chiller for 10minback into the kettle during the boil though, so the longest amount of time wort or anything had been sitting in there was an hour and 15min (30min whirlpool and 45min hopstand).

#26 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:41 PM

OK, I missed that in my reading of the OP.

 

I really don't know what is happening then. As I said, it looks like a film to me but such films take days to develop.



#27 BKBrews

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:47 PM

OK, I missed that in my reading of the OP.

I really don't know what is happening then. As I said, it looks like a film to me but such films take days to develop.


Very strange. I'm gonna pitch when the temp drops and just take it from there. I used a metric shit tonne of hops in this so I hope it's drinkable!

#28 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:50 PM

Actually I take that back: it could still be a film that had formed inside the HX and came out when you recirculated. Hopefully the recirculation into the boil killed the organism so you might be OK.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 07 January 2017 - 08:51 PM.


#29 Judanero

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:12 PM

You didn't just skim with your finger did you BK?

 

Let us know how it ferments out- is this a repeat recipe I.e. have you brewed it before?

 

I had similar weird looking patches on the surface of a lager that I only noticed before I was transferring for lagering (which I did for 5 weeks), thought I was detecting some acetaldehyde the first pint I sampled but not sure if it was because in the back of my mind I thought something may have gone wrong.

 

Didn't detect any at any point afterwards. 



#30 BKBrews

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:19 PM

You didn't just skim with your finger did you BK?

Let us know how it ferments out- is this a repeat recipe I.e. have you brewed it before?

I had similar weird looking patches on the surface of a lager that I only noticed before I was transferring for lagering (which I did for 5 weeks), thought I was detecting some acetaldehyde the first pint I sampled but not sure if it was because in the back of my mind I thought something may have gone wrong.

Didn't detect any at any point afterwards.


Nah mate, used a sanitised stainless spoon and then wiped on my finger from there.

This is a new recipe - my first low ABV beer (aiming for 4%), sort of like a session IPA around 35 IBU with all late hops and a big dry hop. Also first time using flowers, so really just wasn't sure!

#31 MHB

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 11:24 PM

My first thought was shed biofilm, can be made up of all sorts of things but hop resins are pretty common.

Give your whole system a good soak in a hot caustic solution, then rinse thoroughly, it can be quite surprising how much crap can accumulate in system.

Just be very careful, hot caustic is very nasty!

Mark



#32 ScottyDoesntKnow

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:51 AM

I get a similar looking thing when I'm cooling my kettle before I transfer to fermenter, looks like little oil slicks. I just assumed it was oils from the hops collecting on top of the wort?

#33 BKBrews

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 09:56 AM

I get a similar looking thing when I'm cooling my kettle before I transfer to fermenter, looks like little oil slicks. I just assumed it was oils from the hops collecting on top of the wort?


I'm quite familiar with hop oil slicks but this is different. Not slick at all and like a dry film that is torn apart like LBC described.

I stayed up until 2am waiting for the brew to come down to pitching temp, so I ended up aerating and pitching at about 20.5 degrees, and let it come down to 18 overnight. Will see how it goes!

#34 BKBrews

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:21 PM

So I checked my brew this morning and it hasn't taken off and there's zero activity (brewometer still shows 1.042), but it's only 12 hours in. The good news is that whatever was on top is gone, must have dropped out when I aerated the wort last night. The surface is crystal clear. Will be interested to see if I ever get this again!

#35 BKBrews

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:50 PM

Just in case anyone is interested, this is looking all very normal and is down to 1.022. It will be exactly 4 days since pitching tonight at 2am.

 

Going to bump the temp to 21 and dry hop it tomorrow.



#36 Mardoo

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 08:42 AM

That's great. Good to hear it took off finally.

How's it taste? The best and cheapest non-laboratory testing tools for infection are your mouth and your nose.

#37 damoninja

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:00 AM

Brewed this morning

 

transferred to the fermenter about 20min ago.

 

Chucked the wort in the fridge

 

get ready to pitch my yeast and I noticed this on the surface.

 

You got a developed infection between chilling and getting yeast ready to pitch? With physical properties displayed? In what, all of 30-40 minutes? 

 

What kind of super lacto are you guys talking about? 



#38 BKBrews

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:19 AM

That's great. Good to hear it took off finally.

How's it taste? The best and cheapest non-laboratory testing tools for infection are your mouth and your nose.

 

To be honest I haven't tasted it yet - this is the first use of the brewometer and I was excited that I would get to stop taking hydro samples and potentially keep oxygen pickup away from my brews without ever having to open the fermenter/expose wort to air. I'm happy to wait until this one has played out to see what I've ended up with.



#39 BKBrews

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 02:21 PM

Anyone had US-05 finish up around 1.004?

 

This finished around there and I was expecting (and hoping for) 1.010. I mashed at 68 to try and make this happen.

 

What could be the reasons for this? Overpitch? Grainfather didn't actually hold 68 degrees through the mash?



#40 Mardoo

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:19 PM

Prediction is, by definition, not a precise art. ;) It's easy to forget that in this age of easily available brewing software.

 

Could be infection, could be happy yeast, could be a happy ending. However, you're totally right. There are a number of potential reasons, including mash temp being off. I just had a Hefeweizen finish unreasonably high (1.015), but we found out during the mash that the temp probe was out of whack - thanks to MY BRAND NEW THERMOPEN!!! ;) So it's always good to look for the reason, if you're shooting for more control.