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"fresh" apple juice cider not doing much after 5 days


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#1 wareemba

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 08:06 PM

i got 20L of fresh apple juice (unpasteurised, came refrigerated) and put in fermenter and got the temp up to 21 degrees then pitched the Mangrove Jacks MO2 cider yeast and put the lid on.

 

there are a few bubbles on the top of the juice (like the size of a beer coaster), but the gravity is 1.040, which is what is was when i started...

 

am i being impatient, is it going to be a slow ferment? 

 

my last cider was supermarket shelf stuff with EC1118 yeast, which cranked along quite hard...

 

 



#2 Bribie G

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 08:27 PM

Yeast nutrient?
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#3 nosco

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 08:50 PM

Yep yeast nutrient. My 2nd attempt at making cider with 50lt of fresh juice after a mix up with the pick up resulted in some excellent but expensive apple cider vinegar. It did take a while to turn to vinegar though. I use nutrient in every thing now.

 

Edit: Its because juice doesnt have the same nutrients as beer (wort) does so its recommended put nutrient in to give the yeast a good start.


Edited by nosco, 12 December 2016 - 08:53 PM.


#4 nosco

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 08:51 PM

Put in some nutrient and pitch some more yeast before the other stuff takes over if it hasn't already.



#5 nosco

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:14 PM

While on the topic off ciders, do or did Aldi ever sell 100% pear juice? I was sure they did but couldnt see it there the other day. Sorry for OT OP.



#6 wareemba

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:21 PM

OK, ill head to my LHBS tomorrow to get some powder to try to save this...

 

but wondering if this was due to the fresh juice, where my other ciders from pasteurised juice (CostCo mostly) have all been happy to turn sugar to more interesting stuff? 



#7 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:40 PM

IMO it's unlikely to be a nutrient problem, they usually show up once you are well into ferment and the yeast runs out of nitrogen.

 

The more likely scenarios are that the yeast is in poor condition or there is an inhibitory compound present in the juice: if it's unpasteurised but microbially stable, that might be because there's a preservative of some form, maybe SO2

 

If you are sure there is no preservative, add some new yeast.

 

If it's likely that there was SO2 added, take about half of it out with peroxide. The quantity of peroxide required to do this is about one quarter of the quantity of SO2 present, eg if you had 100 mg/l SO2 in your 20 litres of juice that's 2 g total, you'd add 0.5g of peroxide which is 1.5ml of a 30% solution.

 

Another technique which can be used if there is an unknown inhibitory compund is to use a sacrificial yeast culture: usually best added when the juice is cold. Add the culture, mix it thoroughly then allow it to fall out and draw the juice off the cake. Warm it up and add a new culture. This works because yeast has an enormous surface area and can thus be used to "fine" out the inhibitory compound. You can use any old yeast for this, it's a good use for yeasts that are past their use by dates.

 

The nutrient won't hurt BTW, most of them are dried yeast hulls which can have a similar effect as above.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 12 December 2016 - 09:56 PM.


#8 Black n Tan

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:42 PM

Fresh juice often contains sorbate as a preservative and this inhibits the growth of yeast. Did you ask if it had any preservatives? If it did it may take a little longer, but it should get going. If not pitch another pack of yeast.

 

EDIT: meant sorbate, not polysorbate


Edited by Black n Tan, 12 December 2016 - 09:51 PM.


#9 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:46 PM

Polysorbates are emulsifiers. I assume you meant sorbate (usually added as the sodium or potassium salt)


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 12 December 2016 - 09:47 PM.


#10 Pratty1

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:36 AM

I pitched a rehydrated packet of US05 into 12.5lts of 1040 cloudy apple cider on Sunday night around 8pm. By 7am the next day it was cranking away. No nutrient, no 02 added, if it stops at 1005 I will be happy as it wont be too dry and wont require to be back sweetened.

#11 wareemba

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 01:42 PM

thanks for all the replies guys!

 

just  after i posted my OP (9pm last night) - i gave it a little twist and shake, now it looks like this 18hrs later...

 

this looks better, right?

 

LZmvbzf.png

 

smells nicer too...



#12 wareemba

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 01:54 PM

The more likely scenarios are that the yeast is in poor condition or there is an inhibitory compound present in the juice: if it's unpasteurised but microbially stable, that might be because there's a preservative of some form, maybe SO2

 

 

and yes, i just confirmed it has preservative 202 in it...

 

but it is literally "bubbling away" now  :beerbang:

 

my lesson learned i guess?

 

thanks for the details everyone, i learned a lot from this thread :)

 

EDIT: this is the label:

 

oux70BY.png

 

should it really be marketed as "fresh juice" if it is reconstituted imported juice?


Edited by wareemba, 13 December 2016 - 02:04 PM.


#13 damoninja

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 02:18 PM

Coles / Woolies home brand stuff isn't stabilised

 

i just confirmed it has preservative 202 in it...

 

Potassium sorbate 

 

  :ph34r:  :ph34r:



#14 tugger

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 02:46 PM

Lc, do you know how or if velcorin or dimethyldicarbonate in fresh juice would cause problems with fermentation after the reaction period?
I have heard a popular juice company is using it now for mainstream chilled juice.

Edited by tugger, 13 December 2016 - 02:48 PM.


#15 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:35 PM

Velcorin / DMDC won't cause issues, it breaks down very quickly in anything wet.

 

BTW it was recently reclassified as a processing aid so it doesn't have to be declared on the label.



#16 tateg

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:41 PM

Hi guys, sorry to hijack the thread, but while we are discussing fresh Apple juice, what would be the best locally available juice to use ? (Local to Melbourne that is).
Cheers

#17 Pratty1

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:57 PM

When enquired with east coast beverage about their apple juice they explained to be they use 202 as well. This hasn't affected my ferment, it's stopped bubbling so a gravity reading later tonight to see what's left. It may of been a little fast, around 48hrs since pitching....

#18 wareemba

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:51 PM

I pitched a rehydrated packet of US05 into 12.5lts of 1040 cloudy apple cider on Sunday night around 8pm. By 7am the next day it was cranking away. No nutrient, no 02 added, if it stops at 1005 I will be happy as it wont be too dry and wont require to be back sweetened.

 

hey mate, i didn't rehydrate - maybe that was my issue?

 

did you just add to a small jug of warm water?



#19 Pratty1

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 10:02 AM

When enquired with east coast beverage about their apple juice they explained to be they use 202 as well. This hasn't affected my ferment, it's stopped bubbling so a gravity reading later tonight to see what's left. It may of been a little fast, around 48hrs since pitching....

 

i retract my posts for this thread.

 

The morning after pitching the air lock was solid activity, i cam home 2 days later and thought it was finished as the airlock was inactive. I left it for another 24hrs and then checked the gravity.....wtf it had only dropped 2 points to 1038. I gave it a swirl and 2 days later it was still inactive, i pitched another packet of 05 and today its still not fermenting.

 

FM! :unsure:

 

The sorbate from the 202 preservative must be stopping this fermenting. Im going to crank up the temp to 21c and if it doesnt get started by tomorrow its going on the lawn.



#20 Lyrebird_Cycles

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 10:48 AM

Not sure why you are using an ale yeast for a cider. The sugars present in fruit juice are all simple so there's no need for the extra di- and tri-saccharide transporters in the beer strains. In my limited experience of these things, wine yeasts are the go (but then I'm biased as I have far more experience with wine yeasts).

 

DV10 is a great workhorse yeast if you want clean neutrality, QA23 is my go-to yeast for aromatic whites (other than sauvignon bland) so it's going into my next cider; should be interesting. These are both low to moderate nitrogen requirement strains which alleviates the need for supplementation. I personally don't like EC1118 as it tends to produce a stewed pineapple flavour which I dislike.


Edited by Lyrebird_Cycles, 17 December 2016 - 11:18 AM.