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Get into O2 guys, if you're serious about nicer beer


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#621 Adr_0

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:46 PM

Dr Smurto answered it in this post on the previous page.
 

 
EDIT - + 1 for the DO instrument testing and mutation observations on the yeast themselves would be the next step.


From everything I've seen, adding H2O2 and methylene blue will actually remove the blue colour. Over the hour or so I thought the blue in the 'saturated' solution was becoming less, but I couldn't be sure.

This morning the 'saturated' solution was as pale yellow as the ascorbic acid reduced solution. Other solutions were unchanged overnight. These other solutions had 0.001% H2O2 in them, vs the 4mL of 12% I had in 40mL of solution to make up the 'saturated' standard.

The studies I've seen use metal catalysts to speed up the reduction, while it still took 6-12hrs with no catalyst.

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.

I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...

#622 Jack of all biers

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:52 PM

EDIT: FWIW, Further to MHB's post, this too is absolutely anecdotal. Equipment-wise I'm finally getting myself to the point I have a satisfactory amount of control to side-by-side ferments that will hopefully satisfy my process desires (Insert heavy SS breathing here). It's been working for me over the last year and I'm pretty damn happy with the results. I was about to upgrade my O2 setup, but was getting ferments that were too fast and too clean. (This was discussed in one of my other ramblings.) I ran across this technique (said to come from Coors via Colin Kaminsky) and thought I'd give it a go while I saved money for the new O2 setup. Over the last year I've tightened up yeast and ferment processes to the point that over the coming year I'll be able to eliminate most of the variables I can see and do true side-by-sides to test the vitality starter process against both air-based and pure O2 aeration.

 

If I could double like your post after reading your edit I would.  Can't wait to read about it.

 

EDIT -

Adr_0, on 19 May 2017 - 8:16 PM, said:
 

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.

I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...

 

Does MB go blue for oxidised molecules/compounds though?  Serious question as I don't know.


Edited by Jack of all biers, 19 May 2017 - 08:57 PM.


#623 Phoney

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:26 PM

Christ almighty with the amount of time you guys have spent (looking back, since bloody February) faffing about researching chemistry and experimenting with this that and the other and so on so-forth with something that may or may not even work, you guys could have just bit the bullet and bought a C02 setup and moved on!   I mean, now you want to get your hands on a DO meter?  My head is spinning, and not because I've had 6+ beers.


Edited by Phoney, 19 May 2017 - 09:35 PM.


#624 Jack of all biers

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:34 PM

Lifes about the journey sometimes, not getting to the end quickly.  CO2 set up already purchased though  :P



#625 Mardoo

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:09 PM

What is the sound of one hand faffing?

#626 technobabble66

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:23 PM

...

The tasting comparison will go on.  Peteru, Techno, Adro, any further results from your experiments that differ from mine so far?

...

Sorry, afraid not.

I've done a few ales with M42 and WLP-530 using a combo of stirring to aerate on the yeast cake then adding some H2O2 ~30mins later to the equivalent of an additional 10ppm O2. The idea being the beasties wake up in the first 30mins, then are able to deal with the H2)2 when i add it.

It's basically not a useful test of the veracity of the H2O2.

I'm not set up to do side-by-sides, so i've assumed any of my findings will be of scant benefit.

Having said that, most of these fermentations have been completed within 2-3 days. This is remarkably fast for me. I'd assume that most of this results from the 2 strains of yeast used plus the large yeast cake population i'm pitching onto. Maybe it suggests the H2O2 is at least not doing any damage to the yeasts that noticeably impairs fermentation rate. These beers are generally not mature enough to show signs of oxidation or other flaws, though i reckon my Oaty Belgian ale from the first generation of the WLP-530 is one of my best beers. So i've definitely not seen any flaws in that after 8-12 weeks.

One other point is that with the M42 yeast cake, i've done 3 consecutive generations, after a previous 2 generations, all using the above stirring plus H2O2 method. All of these show no sign of strain deviation or mutation. Admittedly in a strain that has minimal contribution to the finished beer.

Again, not really anything you could describe as scientific results, but a loose indicator perhaps.

 

Otherwise, top work by Jack & Adr_0. Really impressive work!



#627 technobabble66

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:29 PM

What is the sound of one hand faffing?

it's a kind of swishing sound.

 

;)



#628 Adr_0

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 08:39 AM

If I could double like your post after reading your edit I would. Can't wait to read about it.

EDIT -
Adr_0, on 19 May 2017 - 8:16 PM, said:

This doesn't exactly prove that there are not other oxidation products making the MB go blue. There is a 2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2 decomposition that will occur in water, which is significantly sped up in the presence of yeast - so I'm hoping this produced oxygen to show blue, rather than something else.
I'll have to get my hands on a DO meter from Tech Rentals next time...

Does MB go blue for oxidised molecules/compounds though? Serious question as I don't know.



It doesn't so much to blue for oxidation compounds, but available O or O2 floating around will bond with H on the leucomethylene blue (white/colourless form) and with the H removed and bonds rearranged it turns blue.

Similarly an acid - ascorbic acid in my case - can donate an H to the blue methylene blue, making it colourless leucomethylene.

It is entirely possible that a free O- will bond to MB more readily than forming O2 then bonding to the MB.

EDIT: rushed post before daughter's dancing and got things mixed up.

it's a kind of swishing sound.

;)

I though it was more of a sucky squelchy sound?

Edited by Adr_0, 20 May 2017 - 09:49 AM.


#629 Adr_0

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 01:49 PM

I'm really starting to see the batch where H2O2 was added to the wort start to lag behind the others.  It is quite probable that without the yeast catalase I'm just getting vigorous, slutty O-'s floating around and oxidising wort - while the other tests, with yeast already in suspension and yeast catalase available, ensure at least a bit decomposes to O2.  I know that this isn't particularly groundbreaking, but it's why I diluted the H2O2 (to help mixing) and why I had two tests where yeast was thoroughly mixed around already.  It will be interesting to see if there's a difference.

 

Batch #2 with H2O2 in wort for 40min before contact with any yeast is the orange line:

Attached File  Att-20thMay.png   44.08KB   14 downloads


Edited by Adr_0, 20 May 2017 - 02:16 PM.


#630 good4whatAlesU

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:29 PM

Not sure if its been discussed already but there are numerous aquarium tablets (of varying chemistry) around that claim to oxygenate the water. Some peroxide based? Some potassium chlorate? I'm not up to speed with this chemistry. Perhaps it's possible the slower release tablets might work over several days rather than the straight up liquid hit?

Anyway obviously not safe to drop aquarium tablets in your wort (don't do it!), but if the chemistry (and safety) was sound, could be a market for that sort of thing in brewing.

#631 Adr_0

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:39 PM

Not sure if its been discussed already but there are numerous aquarium tablets (of varying chemistry) around that claim to oxygenate the water. Some peroxide based? Some potassium chlorate? I'm not up to speed with this chemistry. Perhaps it's possible the slower release tablets might work over several days rather than the straight up liquid hit?

Anyway obviously not safe to drop aquarium tablets in your wort (don't do it!), but if the chemistry (and safety) was sound, could be a market for that sort of thing in brewing.

The reason a few of us are testing the H2O2 thing is that it's less gear to have, less intrusive and cheaper than O2 cylinders/regulators - if it works.  It's also better for the back than shaking.

 

I guess it's a similar thing with a tablet - great if it works.  I'm not sure if chlorate (ClO4?) is a good thing to be adding anywhere near malt or yeast though.  The oxygen is probably fine but the chlorine is not.



#632 technobabble66

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 04:42 PM

...
I though it was more of a sucky squelchy sound?

That's the sound of one hand fapping, not faffing.


Edit: it now makes me wonder what you think has been happening every time someone has said "I just spent a few hours faffing around the house" ...

Edited by technobabble66, 20 May 2017 - 04:44 PM.


#633 Adr_0

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:06 PM

Next lot of numbers.  I feel like #1 is Kenny Wallace and the Control is Adam van Koeverden in this video:

 

Attached File  Gravity-20thMay2.png   32.71KB   13 downloads

Attached File  Att-20thMay2.png   45.16KB   12 downloads



#634 MHB

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:08 PM

Adr-0

If the data you have collected so far means anything, it appears to show that no matter when you add peroxide, it does harm!

Be very interesting to see what happens as terminal gravity is approached.

Mark



#635 Adr_0

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:19 PM

Adr-0
If the data you have collected so far means anything, it appears to show that no matter when you add peroxide, it does harm!
Be very interesting to see what happens as terminal gravity is approached.
Mark


Indeed. I thought #3 had a bit of lag and was saving up for a strong push but it doesn't appear so.

Attenuation is one thing, but I'm particularly curious about the sensory indicators. This is probably the worst stage to taste/smell so I'm going to wait until next week for that.

#636 MHB

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:27 PM

What did you do with the "Control" any aeration at all, shaken, stirred... or just yeast into the wort?

Mark



#637 Adr_0

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:37 PM

What did you do with the "Control" any aeration at all, shaken, stirred... or just yeast into the wort?
Mark


6hrs on the stir plate - very scientific, but essentially trying to get oxygenation without too much growth.

All yeast was split down from a fresh 1L starter.

Control was 500mL starter on the stirplate into 12L, while the others were 150mL into 2.5L.

The ratio is about 24:1 in the control and 16-18:1 in the tests. Technically more yeast in the tests but I'm not sure how much difference that makes.