Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Low dissolved oxygen brewing techniques


  • Please log in to reply
136 replies to this topic

#121 good4whatAlesU

good4whatAlesU

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 627 posts
  • Joined 03-June 16
  • Location:north coast

Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:53 AM

There's a bit of mixed data in the literature. This is an old article from the 70's, the guys were looking at ways of degassing water for use in a Liquid Chromatograph (Dell'Ova V.E. et al (1974) "Ultrasonic Degasser for Use in Liquid Chromatography")

 

They suggested "it can be seen that a fifteen minute ultrasonic degassing is equivalent to boiling water for six hours"

 

.. but they used rather an elaborate rig. 



#122 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 06 January 2017 - 09:28 AM

And how quick would baker's yeast be? I have boiled water and purged through my lines and into my mash tun with steam, and let it sit in my HLT for 1-2hrs to let it come down to temperature.

Any issues with baker's yeast and sugars in the mash?

#123 Futur

Futur

    Great Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 91 posts
  • Joined 26-August 14
  • Location:BNE

Posted 06 January 2017 - 10:04 AM

And how quick would baker's yeast be? I have boiled water and purged through my lines and into my mash tun with steam, and let it sit in my HLT for 1-2hrs to let it come down to temperature.
Any issues with baker's yeast and sugars in the mash?

This has been experimented with in detail over at the GBF. Looking at about an hour to an hour and a half. I've been able to repeat the results found in the thread below.

http://forum.germanb....php?f=50&t=355

Some say the yeast in the mash imparts a flavour, others say it doesn't. I haven't personally noticed any off flavours by utilising this method.

Edited by Futur, 06 January 2017 - 10:06 AM.


#124 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 06 January 2017 - 11:12 AM

This has been experimented with in detail over at the GBF. Looking at about an hour to an hour and a half. I've been able to repeat the results found in the thread below. http://forum.germanb....php?f=50&t=355
Some say the yeast in the mash imparts a flavour, others say it doesn't. I haven't personally noticed any off flavours by utilising this method.


That's awesome. I've only read a few pages in... Was it clarified whether dextrose was used or DME? From experiment 1 to 2 he(she?) halved the yeast amount to promote growth, but the sugar appeared to switch to DME.

#125 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 06 January 2017 - 11:45 AM

Although it looks like the "1/2 yeast" test isn't as fast or effective as the other tests.

An article on making a 'zero' solution for DO meters suggests a tablespoon of active dried yeast with one tablespoon sugar, in 500mL water... Which gets it down to 0.0063mg/L. This is... Quite a lot.

https://www.google.c...FVLYKHYO92plUow

For all intents and purposes it looks like 2 x 7g packs in 30-35L of water is probably enough.

I might do this for my strike water, get to strike temp, dough in (15-18L), then heat to boiling and boil/stir for my sparge water (20L), which only has to cool to 80°C and which will have SMB in my 10L cubes.

Edited by Adr_0, 06 January 2017 - 11:46 AM.


#126 Futur

Futur

    Great Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 91 posts
  • Joined 26-August 14
  • Location:BNE

Posted 06 January 2017 - 06:28 PM

For all intents and purposes it looks like 2 x 7g packs in 30-35L of water is probably enough.

 

http://shop.coles.co...t-dried-instant



#127 dannymars

dannymars

    Brew Master

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 322 posts
  • Joined 18-June 14
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:18 PM

This thread is blowing my mind... I just listened to the Fermentation Nation podcast episode about this today....

I can feel an obsession starting...

Theoretically, could you build an airtight chamber.... Flush it with pure N2 and brew in that? Obviously the brewer would have to wear and oxygen mask or skuba gear but is this even viable..... Would be hilarious non the less.

#128 Mardoo

Mardoo

    Noob What Craps On A Bit

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,662 posts
  • Joined 24-March 12
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:48 PM

Especially if you wore flippers. YouTube please!



#129 good4whatAlesU

good4whatAlesU

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 627 posts
  • Joined 03-June 16
  • Location:north coast

Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:40 PM

I wonder if beer could be carbonated with Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) ... Now that would be entertaining!

#130 dannymars

dannymars

    Brew Master

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 322 posts
  • Joined 18-June 14
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:25 PM

I wonder if beer could be carbonated with Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) ... Now that would be entertaining!

 

instant oxydation... would be the opposite of what we are trying to acheive here.  There's a youtube video somewhere where they did it with helium... Funny video, but fake.



#131 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:56 AM

Well, about to do the baker's yeast method, with some CO2 purging of the mash tun and lines and SMB (a reduced dose). Recipe is a brown ale.

Although I mentioned purging with steam previously, I didn't end up up brewing that day for a few reasons, so didn't get to recognise the effectiveness or practicality of low DO.

Wish me luck... Something photos to follow.

Edited by Adr_0, 11 January 2017 - 07:57 AM.


#132 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:20 AM

After about 1hr10min of the yeast working on the strike water (smelled like it was), I did the following:
- Purged the mash tun from the bottom up with CO2
- Added 20mg/L of SMB + 20mg/L of ascorbic acid to the mash tun
- Underlet a few litres, then went up to 14L while cracking in the grain
- I also purged through the grain 'stream' with CO2 per this pic:
Attached File  mt-purge.jpg   414.03KB   18 downloads

When sparge water is drained into 2 x 10L cubes - each dosed with 30mg/L SMB - I'll then purge the kettle using the valve here:
Attached File  kettle-purge.jpg   290.39KB   21 downloads

The mill and chute goes directly into the mash tun, between the two latches... so hopefully has minimal exposure to air, and is being milled into a mash tun full of CO2 or LODO water.

So hopefully the mechanism of yeast metabolism, underletting, SMB/ascorbic acid and pre-purging with CO2 will combine to reduce the DO in my brewday....


Edited by Adr_0, 11 January 2017 - 10:51 AM.


#133 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:45 PM

Well, i think it went fairly well - though I didn't measure DO at any stage, so a grain or two of salt issue recommended.

I ended up using about 1.2-1.4g SMB with all of my 34L of brewing water. A small portion on top of this was ascorbic acid (300-400mg).

I did notice there was very little aroma through the brewery, but in sampling the wort attend the end it way quite astringent. I believe this is the combination of 7.5% roasted malt (choc) with sulphate.

The article suggests that 100mg/L will contribute 76mg/L of sulphate, assuming all sulphite is oxidised.

I did add calcium chloride today the initial mash, but at my dosing rates I should have only seen 25mg/L on top of normal sulphate levels.

I added a little more calcium chloride to the boil and this improved things greatly. I think part of it was a temperature perception, but I hate to think what sort of sulphate levels you'd end up with at 100mg/L dosing.

#134 klangers

klangers

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 521 posts
  • Joined 10-September 14
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 13 January 2017 - 10:21 AM

Yeah - the sulphates introduced as part of the SMB additions were what had me a bit concerned. If you're trying to avoid the "hop pop" for a bock or something then it makes it a little difficult.



#135 Adr_0

Adr_0

    Gear Bod

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined 04-April 13
  • Location:Tannum Sands, Gladstone

Posted 13 January 2017 - 10:56 AM

Yeah - the sulphates introduced as part of the SMB additions were what had me a bit concerned. If you're trying to avoid the "hop pop" for a bock or something then it makes it a little difficult.

It interesting that they chose Helles as a starting style, however on page 4:
...starting with reverse osmosis water and simply [add] enough calcium chloride to achieve 30 to 50 ppm of calcium

Without reading that initially I was probably halfway there, so makes a lot more sense now and would suggest this is an absolutely critical step.

To get 50ppm Ca in RO water, this would give 85ppm Cl which should balance the 76ppm SO4.

So, a critical step - but if you already have potentially 70-105ppm SO4 in Brisbane water, you're in trouble.

Edited by Adr_0, 13 January 2017 - 11:03 AM.


#136 good4whatAlesU

good4whatAlesU

    Beer God

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 627 posts
  • Joined 03-June 16
  • Location:north coast

Posted 23 January 2017 - 07:33 AM

I emailed the ultrasonic seller 3 times about getting more photos of their product, but not a single response. .. Not a good sign. Have ditched the idea and ordered a insulated SS double wall food warmer to mash in.

#137 Futur

Futur

    Great Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 91 posts
  • Joined 26-August 14
  • Location:BNE

Posted 28 January 2017 - 11:57 PM

Just thought I'd share my new rig to replace my Grainfather, taking into account low O2 practice.

Attached Files