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Hallertau Hersbrucker V Hallertau Mittelfruh


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#1 thedragon

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:15 PM

Tomorrow I will put down a strong Belgian blonde ale based on the "Lefty Blonde" recipe from Brewing Classic Styles (p. 234). I'm aiming for a blonde ale, but have changed the grain bill slightly to match the ingredients that I have on hand. I will use the BIAB method and no chill.

The recipe I am thinking of is:

Grain
Pilsner 72%
Wheat 18%
Dex 10%

(note that the recipe in the book calls for 5% Aromatic, however as I have none on hand I'll up the wheat)

Hops
Hallertau Mittelfruh @ 60 mins to 25 IBU

Yeast
Fermentis Safbrew T-58

Ferment @ 18c until FG is reached, then cool to 7 deg for 4 weeks prior to bottling.

Here are my questions:
1. As a relative AG newbie, am I right to use Hallertau Mittelfruh if I'm looking to brew a strong Belgian blonde ale? The recipe calls for Hallertau, however I know that there's Hallertau Mittelfruh and Hallertau Hersbrucker. Have I got the wrong Hallertau?
2. Will I stuff up the recipe if I leave out the Armoatic and bump up the wheat? If the answer is yes, I'm happy to leave it until next week when I've had the chance to get back to the LHBS.

Sorry if the question on the hops has been asked and answered before, but I have searched AHB, looked in to Brewing Classic Styles and John Palmer's How To Brew, and can't find an answer.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Daniel

#2 felten

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:21 PM

When its only for a bittering addition I don't think the hop difference will matter at all.

#3 Cocko

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:29 PM

Totally agree with Felton, if it is a bittering addition it would make minimal difference to the overall flavour of the beer.

If you were doing something like a cream ale or faux lager/with us05 or even a real lager - and you were using it late, mittlefrah brings a much fresher, bigger bang for flavour to the plate IMO.

Cheers

#4 Online Brewing Supplies

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:47 PM

Both are great hops, Hersbrucker to me leaves a tobacco flavor which I like but Mittlefruh is much more refined finishing hop.
Both are wasted for bittering.
Nev

#5 Nick JD

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:53 PM

I find using the right hop even if it's just for bittering is worth it - unless you are trying to save money.

Because you need to use such a large amount of hops to get your target bitterness with the nobles, they can impart a lot of flavour, and this comes through in the beer.

Also - Leffe Blond doesn't use T58 ... it's a yeast driven beer, so expecting Leffe using T58 is like expecting a party in your mouth when buying VB.

Get a pack of Wyeast 3787.

#6 manticle

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

I find using the right hop even if it's just for bittering is worth it - unless you are trying to save money.

Because you need to use such a large amount of hops to get your target bitterness with the nobles, they can impart a lot of flavour, and this comes through in the beer.

Also - Leffe Blond doesn't use T58 ... it's a yeast driven beer, so expecting Leffe using T58 is like expecting a party in your mouth when buying VB.

Get a pack of Wyeast 3787.


I agree with this. I don't think that the difference between mittelfruh and hersbrucker is significant enough that I'd panic about bitering with one over the other - both will work in this scenario and the yeast will make the most significance but changing a hop can/will change the flavour even at 60 mins.

However if you were comparing mittelfruh to chinook???? - then don't let anyone tell you that bittering additions (particularly in beers that have no other additions) have no flavour impact. Bite the bullet, bitter with the right hop when you can and when you can't, accept that it may end up differently to the expected result.

Edited by manticle, 17 March 2012 - 11:36 PM.


#7 MHB

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:31 PM

German hop naming follows a convention – Region then Breed; so Hallertau Hersbrucker means it’s Hersbrucker hop grown in the Hallertau region, if it was “genuine” Hersbrucker it would be called Hersbruck Hersbrucker telling you it was the original hop native to the Hersbruck region.
The Hallertau region is very close to where hops originated and Hallertau Hallertauer Mittlefrüh is probably the classic noble hop.
I know it’s often a low alpha variety but it is still in my opinion one of the finest hops on the planet, never miss an opportunity to use it.
This is one of those rare occasions where I have to agree with Nick JD, if you must use a dry yeast S-33 is a lot more Leffe like than T-58, which is better in strong dark Belgians. You would be better off choosing an appropriate Wyeast or White Labs strain.

#8 mirogster

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:22 AM

Despite it would be an american pov- I strongly suggest, to find and listen to TheBrewingNetwork -Jamil Show podcast about Blonde Ale.

#9 Cocko

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:24 AM

Despite it would be an american pov- I strongly suggest, to find and listen to TheBrewingNetwork -Jamil Show podcast about Blonde Ale.


Awesome!

Thanks for that

#10 SJW

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:58 AM

Nice info there lads, I think everyone agrees :)
That reminded me, I need to place my order for a Hallertau Pils, and yes I will be using Wyeast 2124 and Hallertau Mittelfruh all the way through 3 additions for about 45 ibu'S. YUM

Edited by SJW, 18 March 2012 - 07:01 AM.


#11 iralosavic

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:30 AM

I've always seen Leffe clones using Styrian Goldings and Saaz... I've never made one myself, so can't personally comment on how close it comes, but many people have gone so far as to say it is very close, but almost better in its slight differences.

Edit: Leffe Blonde Recipe

Edited by iralosavic, 18 March 2012 - 08:33 AM.


#12 Nick JD

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:41 AM

I've always seen Leffe clones using Styrian Goldings and Saaz... I've never made one myself, so can't personally comment on how close it comes, but many people have gone so far as to say it is very close, but almost better in its slight differences.

Edit: Leffe Blonde Recipe


NOOOOOO! Someone need to change the name of the "Leffe" recipes that say to use 1762, to like, NOT LEFFE.

1762 is not, I repeat not the right yeast.

3787 or even 1214 ... but you will FAIL to make Leffe if you use 1762.

#13 iralosavic

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:45 AM

NOOOOOO! Someone need to change the name of the "Leffe" recipes that say to use 1762, to like, NOT LEFFE.

1762 is not, I repeat not the right yeast.

3787 or even 1214 ... but you will FAIL to make Leffe if you use 1762.


haha Nick. Yes, I have such conclusions noted in my BrewMate recipe notes. Personally, I always read through a recipe thread before thinking about reproducing it - once other brewers give it a go it almost always underoes an evolution. I'm making my own take on it with 3787 when I get around to it (got too many other recipes earlier in the queue).

#14 thedragon

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:19 AM

Thanks to you all for your feedback, especially in relation to the yeast. 3787 it is, although I'll have to Waugh until next weekend when the lhbs is open again.
Daniel

#15 iralosavic

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

Considering you're using, what, $15-20 of grain for this recipe so far, my personal approach would be to put a little extra cash into it and buy some speciality grains along with the wyeast pack. The biscuit/caramel and munich (and melanoiden if not decocting I guess) are responsible for giving it a more chewy and flavourful taste that hides the alcohol content and compliments the trappist yeast well.

You could easily substitute dex or table sugar in leiu of candy sugar (as per the FlyBlown stating 'cane sugar'), but if you can make it yourself it's as cheap as regular sugar and a bit of fun. It's pretty easy, but you'll need a candy thermometer ($10 ebay).

#16 thedragon

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:48 PM

Gents, thanks for your advice so far. I put this brew down 2 weeks ago and getting ready to bottle or crash chill or something else at the weekend. Based on the Lefty Blond recipe in Brewing Classic Styles and what I had on hand, here's what went in

Pilsner 80%
Wheat 7%
Crystal 40 5%
Dex 8%
Hallertau 6.3% AA @ 60 mins to 25 IBU

BIAB, 21 L in to fermenter, OG 1.063. No chill.

Wyeast 3787 pitched at 18 deg. Currently stable at 20 deg (although it hit 21 deg 3 days after pitching, hopefully this doesn't leave a bad taste).

The recipe says "carbonate the beer to 3 to 4 volumes and allow to lager for 1 month at 7 deg".

This may be a stupid question, but should I bottle the batch, let carbonate at room temp, and then put the bottles in the fridge at 7 deg for a month? Or would I be best to put the primary in the fridge at 7 deg for a month, then bottle and carbonate. I'd have thought that the second option would have been the better idea, however in reading the recipe I'm not sure.

#17 manticle

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:10 PM

Put the primary in the fridge and lager at 0-2 degrees for a month if you can hold off that long, 1-2 weeks if you can't.

Then bottle, let come to room temp and carb.

I've heard of people bottling then lagering but since lagering drops out things better left out of the beer, I'd prefer to do it first.

#18 SJW

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:34 PM

I am drinking my Hallertau Mid. pils now.....but the Saaz pils stills rocks.

#19 Tony

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:14 PM

When its only for a bittering addition I don't think the hop difference will matter at all.



Both are great hops, Hersbrucker to me leaves a tobacco flavor which I like but Mittlefruh is much more refined finishing hop.
Both are wasted for bittering.
Nev


Nev is spot on with the the description.

Hersbrucker is a deeper rounder, red wine and tobacco type character, while Mittlefrau i would best describe as fresh spicy and floral.

When i make euro lagers, i bitter with big additions of noble hops. I find using a big pile of low alpha noble hops in a 40 min bittering addition has a massive flavour and aroma impact on the beer.... almost to the point of not needing late hops. I also find i get a completly different beer depending on what hop variety i use so i totally disagree with the..... it wont make any difference to a bittering addition coments.

If you boil them for 90 min..... well your going to lose most of the character, but for me, at a home brew level, i dont see why i need to save $2 on hops and use high alpha varieties and then try and swamp the beer with late hops to get some less stable character in there.

A bit off topic i know but partly relevant.

Tomorrow im using Hallertau Tradition organic (ordered 2011 tradition and got 2010 tradition organic ???) but will be interesting to see how it goes....... its been years since i used it.

Betweeen mittlefrau and Hersbrucker...... or any of the variants, it really depends on the beer your making and the final character you want. I recon a 50/50 mix of the 2 in a bittering addition would give a good complexity. I remember a beer made by Potters years ago with 50/50 hersbrucker and SAAZ and it was incredible...... very complex.

hope this helps a bit

cheers

#20 bum

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:40 PM

If you boil them for 90 min..... well your going to lose most of the character, but for me, at a home brew level, i dont see why i need to save $2 on hops and use high alpha varieties and then try and swamp the beer with late hops to get some less stable character in there.

Everything below is OT to the OP.

re: bold
Every now and then I read something here that really gets me thinking about my process (which I do already think about, naturally). This post feels like a bit of a kick up the bum (if you'll pardon the expression). Cheers, Tony! I don't brew Euro lagers but your post does have me thinking about how I do mostly lean a bit on my late additions for a large amount of my bittering and I have been unhappy with stability in some of my brews. Food for thought.