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#21 mabrungard

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:29 AM

Bicarbonate in ppm is equal to the Alkalinity ppm (as CaCO3) divided by 1.22.  

 

For example: 122 ppm alkalinity (as CaCO3) is equal to 100 ppm bicarb.



#22 Spiesy

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:27 AM

Total alkalinity expressed as CaCO3

 

thank you, Sirs.


Edited by Spiesy, 10 June 2013 - 09:27 AM.


#23 Bribie G

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:36 AM

For a good calcium hit, MHB and others in the Hunter area have been experimenting with Calcium Lactate and getting good results. It's the stuff they put in "calcium enriched" fruit juices so food grade. I'll ask him about it when I'm down there next.



#24 mabrungard

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:40 PM

For a good calcium hit, MHB and others in the Hunter area have been experimenting with Calcium Lactate and getting good results. It's the stuff they put in "calcium enriched" fruit juices so food grade. I'll ask him about it when I'm down there next.

 

If you like the flavor of lactic acid in your beer (lactate) when you overdose it, then you will love calcium lactate.  It adds 2 ppm of lactate for every ppm of calcium added.  

 

Fortunately, lactate is a typical component in beers and is often at low concentration.  Most people can start to taste lactate at about 300 ppm.  So you should be able to add calcium lactate to achieve modest calcium levels without reaching the lactate taste threshold.  Unfortunately, you can't really rely on being able to keep the lactate level low with judicious dosing of calcium lactate since there are many other sources of lactate in the brewing process.  A brewer is wise to avoid boosting the calcium level by more than 50 ppm (100 ppm lactate) to try and stay below the taste threshold.



#25 going down a hill

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:07 PM

Does anybody have the link to the website in which you can track the reservoir where each part of Melbourne is supplied. I tried to find it on melb water's website and came up with nothing concrete. Seeing I don't know where the water is coming from I can't punch in the numbers with any reliability from the water report.

Or if someone knows where the fine people of Preston get their water source from that would be appriciated as well.

Cheers.

#26 Black n Tan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:14 PM

I got my info from the Citywest Water website under water quality which covers my area. Check you local providers website.



#27 going down a hill

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:08 PM

Cheers BnT, I hadn't thought about that. Yarra Valley water state that its Silvan / Sugarloaf - Summer & Sugarloaf - Winter.

YV's website hasIt an overall image of who gets what across melbourne. I'd post the pic but I'm on my phone, so here is the link, go to page 8.

http://www.yvw.com.a.../yvw1002794.pdf

#28 manticle

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:09 PM

Does anybody have the link to the website in which you can track the reservoir where each part of Melbourne is supplied. I tried to find it on melb water's website and came up with nothing concrete. Seeing I don't know where the water is coming from I can't punch in the numbers with any reliability from the water report.

Or if someone knows where the fine people of Preston get their water source from that would be appriciated as well.

Cheers.

 

 

I've had similar trouble but they are responsive to emails asking that exact question. Usually between 2 and 7 days should see a polite, informative response.



#29 going down a hill

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:20 PM

Cheers Manticle, no need the internet delivered.

#30 manticle

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:21 PM

Love the internet



#31 Mclovin

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

Does anyone use campden tablets to remove chlorine? or does a 5 min boil do the job? 



#32 manticle

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:22 PM

Melbourne water will cope fine with boiling or even heating to strike in most instances. I don't boil and get no chlorephenol issues whatsoever - have tasted their effect before though - pretty damn distinctive.

 

Campden if you need to deal with chloramines which Melbourne water does not contain (although extended boiling and RO filtering can also help with  this)



#33 Mclovin

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:24 PM

I didn't think we needed them. I always pre-boil but.   



#34 heyhey

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 10:53 AM

Does anybody have the link to the website in which you can track the reservoir where each part of Melbourne is supplied. I tried to find it on melb water's website and came up with nothing concrete. Seeing I don't know where the water is coming from I can't punch in the numbers with any reliability from the water report.

Or if someone knows where the fine people of Preston get their water source from that would be appriciated as well.

Cheers.

 

 

I got my info from the Citywest Water website under water quality which covers my area. Check you local providers website.

 

 

Cheers BnT, I hadn't thought about that. Yarra Valley water state that its Silvan / Sugarloaf - Summer & Sugarloaf - Winter.

YV's website hasIt an overall image of who gets what across melbourne. I'd post the pic but I'm on my phone, so here is the link, go to page 8.

http://www.yvw.com.a.../yvw1002794.pdf

I know this is a bit of a post dig. But I've worked with Yarra Valley Water, Melbourne Water, Goulburn-Murray Water and Goulburn Valley Water. I'd like to explain a little about the varaibility of Melbourne's supplies.

 

The water in Melbourne is supplied by Melbourne Water in bulk, to the retailers (Yarra Valley Water, South East Water, City West Water). Melbourne Water has the ability to supply the whole of Melbourne from a variety of storages and there is usually seasonal change to what dam/storage is supplying when. Melbourne is supplied by dams in Gippsland (Tarago), the Upper Yarra Valley, excraction from the Yarra River (Sugarloaf), Desal, Cardinia etc. Due to these variations of catchment, water mineralisation does change. That said, due to the closed catchment nature of the dams (not the Desal), relatively all mineralisation comes from the ground naturally. Melbourne's water from all catchments has sweet f'all treatment, with most disinfection done by UV at Winneke (Sugarloaf).

 

BUT, as Melbourne Water supplies bulk, the retailers need to handle the water to your tap.

 

The retailers have a distribution and storage (no catchment) network to transport the water. The water will change it's mineral composition through its trip from dam to tap.

 

Residences in Warbuton will have massively different water quality compared to those in Altona even though they might be getting supplied by the same storage. People in Warburton would likely have more suspended heavy metals because the particles would not have had time to settle into sediment. Those in Altona could have relatively stale water because of the time it takes to get to their tap through so many closed conduits.

 

From experience, Yarra Valley Water spot dose chlorine in some storages due to water retention times, pipe conditions, etc.

 

Even the pipe network will contribute to mineralisation. Pipes in use can include Cement Lined Mild Steel, Polypropylene, Polyethylene, Ductile, Cast, Grey Iron unlined or lined with cement (all lined in Melbourne), Asbestos Cement, Epoxy or Enamel lined, stainless, etc, etc. These pipes, particulaly metalic pipes can contribute to mineralisation.

 

The variables with Melbourne's supply might be relatively insignificant, but anything you obtain from the authorities, I'd take with a grain of salt. Pun not intended, but I'll claim it.

 

Anyway, Melbourne's water is one of the most untreated supplies in the World.



#35 technobabble66

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:33 PM

I've had similar trouble but they are responsive to emails asking that exact question. Usually between 2 and 7 days should see a polite, informative response.

 

 

...

The water in Melbourne is supplied by Melbourne Water in bulk, to the retailers (Yarra Valley Water, South East Water, City West Water). Melbourne Water has the ability to supply the whole of Melbourne from a variety of storages and there is usually seasonal change to what dam/storage is supplying when. Melbourne is supplied by dams in Gippsland (Tarago), the Upper Yarra Valley, excraction from the Yarra River (Sugarloaf), Desal, Cardinia etc. Due to these variations of catchment, water mineralisation does change. That said, due to the closed catchment nature of the dams (not the Desal), relatively all mineralisation comes from the ground naturally. Melbourne's water from all catchments has sweet f'all treatment, with most disinfection done by UV at Winneke (Sugarloaf).

 

BUT, as Melbourne Water supplies bulk, the retailers need to handle the water to your tap.

...

The variables with Melbourne's supply might be relatively insignificant, but anything you obtain from the authorities, I'd take with a grain of salt. Pun not intended, but I'll claim it.

...

 

Followed Manticle's advice & emailed YVW to find out which storage facilities supply to my house in Reservoir (as i brew beer & need to have an idea on water composition, etc).

The response:

...........

Unfortunately, we are unable to determine which reservoir supplies a particular property as water may merge from more than 1 supply.

Not sure if this link from Melbourne Water would help, but shows all reservoirs and areas.

http://www.melbourne...reservoirs.aspx

 If you have any further enquiries please reply to this email or phone 1300 304 688, Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm and Saturday 8am to 4pm.

...............

 

Did i just get an idiot who thought I was asking for the name of a single reservoir supplying my particular house at a given time, or is it really meant to be impossible for YVW to identify roughly the combination of reservoirs supplying a house/neighbourhood??

 

Oh, and that link has a very vague indication of Silvan & Sugarloaf supplying the north of Melb - which is the 3rd or 4th YVW webpage i've seen to give a vague indication, all of which seem to be slightly different to each other.

 

Can i assume the water supplied to the north is all roughly the same? In which case, what reservoir/store do others go by in the north of melb?

 

FWIW, the YVW '11/'12 Annual Report suggests the Reservoir/Bundoora area is supplied by a combo of Silvan + Sugarloaf + Yan Yean. How the hell do i amalgamate all of them - just average it out? :huh:


Edited by technobabble66, 03 October 2013 - 04:56 PM.


#36 Black n Tan

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:48 PM

when I went to my local suppliers website (citywest water) and searched for water quality, I found a report that detailed the water quality data from sampling stations in each suburb/region. So I was able to find actual 2012 summary data for my local area (ascot vale) and didn't have to rely on Melbourne Water data and working our which catchment the water was coming from. Have you had a look at the Yarra water website to see if they offer something similar?



#37 technobabble66

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

...

Have you had a look at the Yarra water website to see if they offer something similar?

Yep.

Nup.

 

though i'd luv to be corrected if i've missed something...

 

I've seen a few reports stating Reservoir is part of Area 14 in YVW's jurisdiction. However, what supplies Area 14 is open to interpretation depending on which report you read. As above, i think the latest one states a combo of Silvan + Sugarloaf + Yan Yean supply Area 14. However, to complicate this, that particular report also graphically indicates Reservoir is split into Area 14, and partly into Area 9 (Preston/Thornbury).

 

Oh, and another minor technicality: i think YVW's website/reports give analysis for all reservoirs except Sugarloaf (which is the only definite supplier to my specific area). :wacko:

 

So, i'm not sure if i'm being too anal/pedantic with this & should just average out between Yan Yean & Silvan, or if it's actually important to get this info correct.

FWIW, i also notice the analysis reports state the figures are derived from data between 2007 to 2012. During which time we've had a major drought & the water quality varied quite a bit. :(

 

 

*Sigh* 

i think i should just chuck in a few g's of gypsum & acidulated malt, and go worry about something else... :mellow:



#38 manticle

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:16 PM

I emailed melbourne water rather than my direct supplier.
You may need to average it out over a couple of reservoirs but even the high looking values will likely be very low.

#39 Black n Tan

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:37 PM

This is what CityWest Water supply and it provides everything you would need (Ca, Cl, SO4, hardness, alkalinity, Mg etc etc). Pity Yarra Water don't provide the same.

 

http://www.citywestw...report_2012.pdf



#40 heyhey

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:44 PM

Melbourne Water will supply the retailers from where ever they have water to provide, the retailers (CWW, YVW, SEW) will do the same from their own supply provided by MW.

 

Yarra Valley Water will be the hardest to determine supply because they can receive from anywhere, the others, particularly CWW cannot. Most of Yarra Valley Water's water will come from catchment dams of Melbourne Waters, into Melbourne Water's Sugarloaf dam and through the Winneke Water Treatment Plant at Sugarloaf then into the Melbourne Water distribution network (including other large tanks and storages not listed on their site as they are not catchments, eg. Frankston Res, Mitcham Res, etc), then into the YVW distribution network including their tanks, then into the reticulation network.

 

As for the water quality districts with YVW (http://www.custdetai...?style=business) they are not storage specific, they are just where distribution goes into a reticulation network.

 

What is the most complicating factor in all of this is now we have the desal, they seasonly change the direction of the water flow in Melbourne in the distribution mains. This does change quality and water make up significantly.

 

All the retailers can and will change supply lines daily in some cases. They might receive water from Melbourne Water for a week or two, top up there own storages, then distribute as demand requires. This would mean the same reservoir water is split up, put through different systems, but potentially go to the same end location.

 

When you have a look at large water users or food/beverage producers, like Amcor, CUB, SPC, etc (the one's I'm farmiliar with), they all have inhouse water monitoring and treatment. Because varaition does occur at any point in time.

 

You can read what ever report you want, but its a yearly, maybe monthly average at best.

 

Your only a homebrewer, so accept there are variables you can't control to the nth degree.

 

In summary:

Melbourne Water will not know what water got to your house. They can't even accuratley speculate.

The retailers (YVW, CWW, SEW), don't really know what water Melbourne Water supplied them. But they might be able to tell you what tank was supplying your area at a particular time. Big might, but it won't mean much.