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Timothy Taylor's 150th


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#1 Voosher

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 07:18 PM

Bugger the AFL Dream Team...
Here's a real 150th birthday to celebrate.
Yorkshire Post

And special thanks to the homesick Yorkshireman who pointed it out to me.

#2 Muggus

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 08:16 PM

Good on 'em.
Landlord is without doubt one of nicest beers i've ever tried, particularly off cask.
Only wish we could get a good variety of Timothy Taylor beers down under. Not sure how cask beer would travel overseas though.

#3 DrSmurto

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 02:51 PM

Some very interesting points in that article Voosh. The idea that its 100% GP comes up again. A 2 hour mash. Is that indicating a lower modified malt? it would be sensational if a supplier was able to get some floor malted english malt into this country. I dont get that biscuity flavour when i chew on MO or GP. Maybe i need to add a bit of amber to the next batch instead of munich.

I have my version on tap at present and am loving every last drop of it. Will be raising the glass many a time this week in honour of such a damn fine beer.

#4 DrSmurto

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 03:37 PM

Almost forgot - they make a point of mentioning the spring water they use is very soft which is unusual for english breweries. I will try using my rainwater next time and see what difference that makes.

#5 KoNG

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 03:51 PM

Almost forgot - they make a point of mentioning the spring water they use is very soft which is unusual for english breweries. I will try using my rainwater next time and see what difference that makes.


I noted that too, i have run out of gypsum at the moment and have struggled to find anyone with a decent amount at a decent price! i'm over the little 50g brewcraft packs..!
anyhow, 2 weeks back i brewed a version of my summer bitter with a small truck load of slov styrian plugs late...
it has turned out really well, with some great flavours from the styrian that i have not achieved before.
i'm wondering if i can put that difference down to my lack of adding the usual brewing salts.. and consequent soft water.?!?

i'm heading home to pour me a PhAT Pint o styrian... in honour of the 150 years of TT

#6 dig

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 04:42 PM

Has anyone seen an analysis of that Knowle Spring water?

#7 DrSmurto

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 04:50 PM

Whilst they suggest it is very soft compared to typical english brewing waters i suspect it still contains a lot more minerals than my rainwater as soft/hard is generally used to describe the amount of Ca and carbonate in the water.

Water that has travelled underground and up thru a spring is bound to contains plenty of minerals, it just depends on what type of minerals are in the ground its passes thru/over.

#8 wessmith

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 05:52 PM

Totally agree you need to see the water analysis before jumping to any conclusions. Re the GP malt - it is floor malted at Thomas Fawcett specially for TT. The malting regime quoted in the article will produce a lot more flavour/aroma than we see with our local malts. What we dont know is the mineralistaion of the mash/sparge water (if any), degree of kettle caramelisation etc etc. BTW, the TF floor malts are HIGHLY modified and TT use a single infusion system.

Wes

#9 dig

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:12 PM

I'm curious about this water now. Chances are that they either add or subtract from it to get want anyway.... but you know, sometimes odd yeasts with odd water in odd shaped fermenters just work out somehow.

Kirem, you did some sleuthing into the TT practices if memory serves.... did you stumble upon anything water related?

Edited by dig, 06 May 2008 - 08:22 PM.


#10 kirem

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:21 PM

I'm curious about this water now. Chances are that they either add or subtract from it to get want anyway.... but you know, sometimes odd yeasts with odd water in odd shaped fermenters just work out somehow.

Kirem, you did some sleuthing in the TT practices if memory serves.... did you stumble upon anything water related?


It's a big secret.... :D Much like a Yarra Valley brewery..................

Nah, seriously and stupidly I didn't think to investigate the water. I will now.

I did a quick google when this post came up looking for the water profile or any leads. Guess I know what my days will be taken up with now.

#11 dig

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:31 PM

OK, I'll give you a clue:

We won't be using TF floor-malted Marris Otter. Much as I'd like to.

One of my fave brewpubs in Canada, Longwood in Nanaimo, make all their beers from TF F-M MO. Delicious.

#12 ausdb

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:10 PM

Has anyone seen an analysis of that Knowle Spring water?

TTLLPA a subject close to my heart, must be the inner yorkshireman in me!

A quick google on mineral waters in the UK brought up this site http://www.food.gov....e/mineralwaters
Then I found Royal Spring Natural Mineral Water was from Keighley as well as Yorksire Spring, so I searched and found Royal springs website and Voila! http://www.royalspri...o.uk/water.html

Mineral Analysis (mg/L)
Calcium 41.2
Magnesium 19.1
Sodium 26.5
Potassium 3.54
Sulphate 18.3
Chloride 12.9
Nitrate <1.00
Aluminium <0.01
Bicarbonates 278
Dry Residues at 180c 262
PH at source 7.30

At a glance the Calcium is very low in comparison to the three Burton waters listed here http://www.unm.edu/~...r/waterpro.html but I'm not sure how to compare the Bicarbonate above with the Carbonate below,
City Ca++ CO3-- Cl- Mg++ Na+ SO4--
Burton 1 268 275 36 62 54 638
Burton 2 270 197 40 60 30 640
Burton 3 295 300 25 45 55 725

Promash lists the following profile for Burton water and also one for Yorkshire with Bicarbonate and also sulphate levels so is a bit more directly comparable, again Calcium is low yet the Bicarbonate is higher than Burton or the other Yorkshire data
Place Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl HCO3
Burton 268 62 30 638 36 141
Yorkshire 105 17 23 66 30 153

I will now leave the discussion up to someone more knowledgeable than myself!

#13 kirem

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:16 PM

Bloody good work ausdb.

Now to talk someone into bringing TF FM MO into the country again......

#14 ausdb

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:20 PM

Bloody good work ausdb.

Cheers, I'm a sh$t brewer but useful for something I guess!
There is a rumour that the WY1469 West Yorkshire VSS may make it out again, but constant pressure from us brewers will help to make it a reality. I wonder if we could do the same thing to get some floor malted GP and MO?

#15 kirem

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:26 PM

I have an angram hand pump ready and waiting for that magical day.

I have a 1469 culture safe for the keeping on a slant and in glycerol - I knew that year of honours at uni in a micro lab would come in handy.

I think we could come bloody close, or we could convince dig to do a 'trial' brew.

I now its not TF, but I wonder how powells malts would come up with the right water profile, hops, yeast, open fermenter

I was off looking on the net for a water profile and came across these arseholes talking about nicking down the pub at lunch time a quick couple of pints of landlord. Imagine that, imagine that! ARSEHOLES :D

#16 dig

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:33 PM

Good work Ausdb. Confirmed my belief that with English ale yeasts, you need gypsum and chloride, Ca and Mg.

Grant Powell's new maltings are due for opening any day now I'm told... looking forward to seeing what comes from them.

#17 Stuster

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:33 PM

Good info, ausdb. I've heard the rumour of a second release of the yeast as well. I've actually just propped up the yeast from 18 months ago (thanks again, kirem and duff) and it's working on the Chiswick bitter from the Big Brew Day last weekend. Maybe I should keep it going for another go at something like TTLL but using straight MO instead of the dreaded GP only brew. :(

#18 kirem

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:43 PM

yeah using only Bairds GP was real a learning curve. Probably the most insipid beer I have ever made. A waste of good EKG, styrian and fuggles. I kept thinking on brew day something magical must happen soon and it never did.

I purchased about 6 bags of it! It goes well with peated malt

#19 ausdb

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:44 PM

I too have some 1469 under (hopefully) sterile water from last time that I am going to crank up soon for a no chill TTLLPA that Randyrob made for me the other week (a good deal I do dodgy welding he makes me wort!!!) But it would be good to get a fresh pack or two for safekeeping.
I have had good results with using just Bairds GP unlike some of you, but most batches had a bit of caramelising before starting the boil 4l down to 2l sort of stuff not GMK wok frying :ph34r: but apart from that I'm not sure why? It would also be nice to try some Powells malt but nobody has ever brought any over to WA
Dig will you have to stick to the companies "preferred suppliers" or will you get the chance to experiment?

#20 kirem

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:52 PM

but I'm not sure how to compare the Bicarbonate above with the Carbonate below,


The following is from brew water 3.0

Normally in "natural" or properly-synthesized brewing water we encounter pH's in the range of around 6 to perhaps 9. In this range, bicarbonate will be the predominate species. However, our municipal analyses often give alkalinity figures "as CaCO3", which ends up relating to CO3 (carbonate) rather than HCO3 (bicarbonate), which is what we're far more likely to find. BreWater bases all alkalinity figures on an "as CaCO3" basis.

Note that CO3 has twice the alkalinity of HCO3. If we use chalk, even though we obtain CO3, it's converted to HCO3 in the typical brewing water pH range. In doing so, it immediately picks up the H+ ion, which removes some acidity (since acids are solutions with lots of H+). The HCO3 itself can then further neutralize still-free H+ ions, thus it gives the "double-whammy" effect. Baking soda, on the other hand, contributes HCO3 directly, so its alkalinity is half that of CO3 since it's already got the H+ and doesn't need to pick it up out of the solution.

BreWater takes the HCO3 obtained from baking soda and figures the alkalinity based on the above concepts. It also changes the ppm of the HCO3 to the "as CaCO3" carbonate equivalent by scaling the molecular weight (MW). That is to say, that CO3 has a MW 98% of what HCO3 does, so the actual HCO3 is multiplied by 0.98 to obtain the "as CaCO3" basis.


Carbonates and alkalinity are trickier. Background information on carbonates is available by clicking here. Alkalinity is likely to be given as "Total Alkalinity "as CaCO3". If so, simply transfer this number to the "alkalinity" box of "Your Water". If your water's pH is between 7.0 and 9.0, you can simplify your situation and assume that the majority (>90%) of your carbonic species are bicarbonates. In this case, multiply the total alkalinity by 1.22 and enter the result in the "(carb)" ("carbonics") box of "Your Water". This will give an estimate of the "as CaCO3" equivalent of the bicarbonate.

If the pH is much lower than 7.0 or much higher than 9.0, the situation gets trickier. My advice in this case is to not bother with coming up with a "(carb)" figure at all. Alaklinity is the factor which affects beer produciton, regardless of its source. By the way, this applies to your Target Profiles as well. In many cases the alkalinity is not given, but a "CO3" or "HCO3" figure is. In this case, multiply the figure by 0.83 to get an estimate of the equivalent alkalinity (assumes the majority of carbonic species is bicarbonate).

If alkalinity is not given, but CO3 and/or HCO3 is, you can derive the alkalinity from each, and add the total. Multiply any HCO3 listing by 0.83, and any CO3 listing by 1.67, add the two results, and enter this as "Alk'y".

To simplify these calculation, try the "Estimate Hardness", "Estimate Alkalinity", and/or "Estimate (carb)" commands in the Utilities menu.

One potential problem with published profiles is that the terms "CO3" and "HCO3" are tossed around interchangeably, and considering that at typical pH most of the carbonic species is bicarbonate, it can be confusing as to what the author really had in mind (why is a measure for "carbonate" given when it's likely that the carbonic mix is >95% "bicarbonate"?). This is why BreWater now uses the descriptor "(carb)" instead of "CO3" in the "carbonates" ppm column. You may have to make some assumptions about the data if it's not clear. In the absence of any other information, assume the water has a pH in the 7.0 - 9.0 range, and treat the figure as HCO3 (bicarbonate). Then multiply by 0.82 to derive a figure for alkalinity.

You'll often see listed along with Total Alkalinity something called "Phenolpthalein Alkalinity", or some abbreviation thereof. This is simply another way to express alkalinity and should just be ignored. Use "Total Alkalinity as CaCO3" in BreWater.

If all else fails, do the best you can with what information you've got! When you mash, have chalk and gypsum or calcium chloride on hand in case you need to adjust y
our pH. Use the measured pH as a guide rather than worrying about how much reported alkalinty is in the water. If your pH is OK, your alkalinity is OK.